Karvin Cheung is back! E338

Sports Guard Nations, Hobbies, the People, Wheely News and Interviews. It's yon number one soul, sports Guard Nations hobby is the People, spawns Guarnation. What is up, everybody? Welcome to Episode three point thirty eight of Sportscardination Podcasts. As always, glad to be back, and today the conclusion of our conversation with Carvin Chung, who's wore a few different hobby hats as we spoke last week.

This is part two and today we get a little bit more into the Exquisite brand, his time at Upper Dack Pannini, you know, whether he wants to see multiple licenses again, and we kind of get his opinion on kind of the the current state of affairs as well. So that's what's on the docket today. Quick quick break and then we'll be back with Carvin Chung. Hobby Hotline is the Hobby's only live, interactive call in show.

Join some of your favorite hobby personalities every Saturday eleven am Eastern eight am Pacific to discuss the hottest hobby topics. If you miss us live, catch us after the fact on all major podcast platforms. Follow us on socials at hobby Hotline. Now to the conclusion of our great conversation with Carvin Chung, I want to start off here talking about maybe ever seeing multiple companies produce the same sport again, you know, where more than one company holds the licensing, where just a collector hat only.

I do miss the days of, like you know, baseball being produced by multiple companies. But I understand why we are where we are now. I don't you know, it depends on the day. Some days I like it more than others.

Probably, you know, may you feel the same way? You know, might the players union or the leagues themselves say, hey, you know, it's forty billion. I'm just making up numbers here. It could be way offered. It's forty billion buck, it's forty billion dollars.

If four, if four manufacturers want us like buy in, it's ten billion apiece. You can produce twenty two products a year. Again, I'm just making up even round number. You think that's ever possible? Or it's just not worth a two a league or players union? Or is it too hard for them to like police Let's say four companies and I use four companies in the forty billion? Just is it is it too hard to police? For them to keep tabs on what four companies where they like it, where they can keep tabs on one.

This is what I would say for the new if I was, you know, obviously the person that makes the decision on saying there's multiple license that's fine. You know, I'm all for either one, like whether it's an exclusive or whether there's multiple licensee. Obviously, on a personal note, as a collector, I want to see you know, because I obviously the company that I that I work for, I love is upper Deck, right, you know, but even Flair Dawn Russ Score, it's it's always good to have multiple choice, right, Like I don't if I if I had said that from this day on moving till the day I die, all there is is Hershey chocolates. Like, uh, if I don't like Kirshey chocolates, that's it.

Like whether it's Hershey Kisses or Hershey brand type chocolates. Right, But I have Lindor with. Truffles or I have I have, so I have choice then, right, So having multiple brands have choice? Now, one way around that for these companies is that, hey, you as a company, you can also create multiple brands that addresses different collector bases. So there's that too as well.

So so there's ways around everything. I've learned a long time ago not to be saying yes or no to everything. It's always a maybe, And how do you get to them to be right? By being creative of creating sets. It's also creative of creating brands, creating products.

Right. So so someone taught me, who was my mentor at upper Deck. He said, carbon, you just can't say no when someone asked you for something. You just can't say.

You can say yes, but. Under these conditions, right, And the conditions could be you have to spend millions of dollars to get to where they wanted to. And I go, that's awesome. And I thought about it more.

And he didn't. He never really explained this to me. I go, this is an awesome idea because instead of my mind saying shutting it down, right, I have to go, hey, maybe there is a way. And it creates that now that that mind is going to be creative and thinking, Man, if I did this and this and this, there is a way, there is a pathway.

Like I always give some ideas, but I always say, hey, you know, even if you don't have a Wemby RPA and National Treasures, I can still create a Wemby And it was like, wow, well, I'm not going to tell you how, but I can tell you I can do it right, and I go, I go. But the mindset is that it's not something that you're normal. You're you're not gonna see it and say, oh, this is the RPA. But once you try kind of figure it out, oh yeah, you're right, carbon, this is the RPA, So you have to accept it that way.

Or let's say creating. A license one Mayama and in the non licensed products that fin access, I can do that too. I have ideas for that too. Now, once again it's thought, it's not the normal mode.

But when you start thinking about that. So when when one Byama was signed to exclusive deal a week later, I had the idea that Pine can create rpas for one BYMA and like guyse likewise, I also found ways of creating a licensed card product or license card for one Byama that would be in their non licensed product right. And everyone always asks me, it's like, well, how are you going to do this? Well, that's a million dollar question. Unfortunately I'm not.

I'm not going to be giving away all my ideas. Now I got used to that, right, yeah, so, but but the but the reason why I say that is not because I can do it or I can't do it, is that when you're presenting a problem, you have to be creative and finding solutions. And that's one way of creating solutions, right, it's not. It's not different than a GM or a capologist that gets the cap numbers and they're like, oh, you know what, we can't sign anybody.

No, you can't because you can sign someone, you can trade someone out. Or let's say with someone's on lone, you can ask your you can ask your existing players to restructure their current deals. Exactly, yeah, exactly. So all those all those ideas just with the salary cap has come about because people were trying to get creative of how to beat the salary cap.

Right, same things should be to anything that you do in life. It should be that way of doing it because it gets the creative just thinking it makes you think. It makes you get out of your chair and get out of your routine and say, you know what it's like. It's like if someone said, hey, I want you, if if JFK said you want we want to go to the moon.

Did you think JFK said, well. You got to build a rocket, you got to build the pods and throw the pods back in the ocean. Or whether it's fake or not, I don't know, Like that's another theory. But but you know, do you think that he was actually building the rockets? No, he said, guys, we got to go to the moon.

Find you a way to get to the moon. How to get to the moon. We're already up in space. How do we get from what do we have to build the lunar pod or whatever the case is, right, And that's how people start getting their creative juices going and say, you know, this is impossible.

Or let's say Tesla with the ev car. You know, when I first heard about Tesla, I was like, are you kidding me? And he like trick car going at you know, rough to sixty and four point six seconds or whatever it was, and he said it could be done. And nobody would say it could be done at that time. Guess what they got it done.

So obviously there is pathways. You have to dream big to be creative. And that's what I would say. If people say no, you say yes.

But upon these conditions are upon this way, right, and then you can refine it, you can make it more efficient later. That's all I say. No, it's a it's a great way thinking. Should never close the door, right, unless you unless you have no other choice.

It's easy to say no and then brush it away, right, that's easy to do. But to leave that door open and say, how do we make it happen? How does this get done? That's that's where you know, intelligent thinking comes in, Creative minds come in, and uh, it's a great point. And I know you gave you credit to your mentor, but you kind of took it what he said and then even even went further with it. So you know, I think more people thought like that, the world could be probably even a better place.

Speaking of a product, you know that that you're always attached to and in a in a fond light and h it's it's really opened the door. You know, even people don't even realize it, right, It's a product that opened the door to a lot of products that we see today. And that's the three oh four Exquisite basketball. For many they just hear that and they know exactly what we're talking about, and the product itself.

You're sort of one of the creative geniuses behind that, if you will. But you know, again following the category of everyone thinks it's easy, I don't think people realize, you know, some of the push and pull even involving with that product, which eventually became a huge hit and very successful, it was a nerve wracking time because at five hundred dollars, the box, the packaging, even what it was going to be called. You know, we eventually settled on Exquisite, but I believe it was going to be called Upper Deck Black, which later became a thing. Right, So you I mean, even on the name itself, there was some back and forth and at the price point at that time, which I know, twenty one, you know, twenty two years ago, twenty one, twenty two years ago doesn't seem that long ago in the hobby space, that is a long time, and people were not real receptive to that price point, and so you had to you know, convince people and why this product was going to be a winner, which which it it became.

But kind of this is your baby, so I'm just kind of you know, giving some of the cliff notes here, but kind of talk about you know, for people who thought it was just oh it was easy. It just came to to store shelves and people bought. It was not as simple as that. I'll let you.

I did enough framling on but go ahead here, you know, and whatever, you kind of fill in the blanks on this particular, you know, groundbreaking product. I'll say it because it was. Yeah, So initially when I was always fascinated with the color black, even though it's not my favorite color. I think it's because you know, as a kid, I was always husky soul.

I always wore black because black makes you slim down a bit, hide some stuff. So I'm a big fan of the color of that. And also, like you know, I'm Chinese by you know, my hair, my hair, it is just Chinese. I would go to Chinese parties and everyone black, and we all have black hair, black, dark brown or black guys.

So it's like, you know, and then and then at that time, and in two thousand and one, there was also a few things that why black fascinated. Number one, the most popular talk show was Who Wants to Be a Millionaire, and Regis Feldman was famous for wearing his black suits with black ties and black shirt. It was all black on black on black. Right.

Also at that at that same time, the American Express came out with the Black Card. Previously, the Platinum card was the card to get and if you had one, you had a lot of new friends, right. And unfortunately they started issuing that and having a membership fee, and then they said, hey, you know what, We're going to create a new black cart Black Centurion card, which I believed to spend a million dollars to get to that card or see politics like that to have access to that Black card. Now it's a little bit easier like the Platinum, but it's still extremely exclusive.

So I said, man, black is the perfect color, the color I like and all that, And I even told our marketing team, you know, we're going to create this probct called black. I wanted to take out a full page ad in the Beckett you know, guess what magazines were a big deal back then. A full page ad of Beckett's just one page of black and an upperduictle in the corner right, and then the next the next point would say it's black again, it's coming right or or get ready and then at the end with to be black. Unfortunately, one of the executives didn't like the name and said, nope, can't be black.

I go, come on, it's a color. And he's like, exactly, and you cannot use it. Right back then, I didn't think would be a big Today, you know, there will be a little bit more sense to it. But so he said, don't go back and go back and figure out a name, and and I came up with Exclusive.

And I actually kind of didn't really like the name for a long time because of what happened. You know, it brings up memories of my arguments and discussions and forcing myself to go to look at you know, us trademark office, trying to look at all these different names. The one thing that I am kind of fond of I don't know why. Maybe it's subconsciously, is I like I like using vowels for a lot of my my products.

So so it was definitely interesting and that's how I picked the exquisite of But you know, to this day, you know, we talked about earlier saying did I have confidence? I had confidence. I have confidence in all my products, but not all my products did well. So you can't sit there and say, you know, it's for sure, a guaranteed winner. What I did know was, you know, we're talking about red and blue and all those Jordan nodels.

That you know I said that I never see. And I remember buying my first ever Jordan collection, not from not when I was out of pre deck, but prior to me working at up a Deck. I buy a Jordan collection so that I can have a bom. It cost me five thousand dollars US at that time with the exchange, it's like eight thousand Canadians, and I was like eight thousand dollars to buy a Jorda nod Well, here's a shot at five hundred dollars to go, and they were pretty frequent, didn't exquisite, So I always felt that exquisite.

But I can't really tell people, oh, yeah, it's chalk full of Jordan nodels, because as soon as I say that, you get Jordas, it's easy to get a Jordan. Didn't expect one in every box, right, So I can't say that. So, but you know, I think people kind of figure it out afterwards that there's a lot of lebron autos and a lot of duels based on you know, any other product that you buy. So, but there's a lot more, too exquisite than than just that.

There's there's a lot the finite details that you know, people like, but they don't know how how it's done, or they don't how to describe it. There's some subconscious things like the names and all that. So and everyone says, well, how did you come up with these ideas? I go, at the end of the day, I'm as true true as to the form of a collector as one else is, right, And little did I know, Like when I created the cards, I go, oh, man, I'm gonna love these cards, and I saw them. I love the cards.

Little did I know that the cards that I would love a lot of collectors like too. So, you know, so at the end of that, I'm not I'm no. I maybe creative in terms of coming up the name. I'm creative coming up the designs and all that.

But whatever I saw I saw in the eye of a collector, and I'm just happy. I'm just so grateful that collectors see it the same way. Well, I think I think that's important to note. I think that there's something to be learned.

I think there's something to be learned from that. Who better to design a product right than somebody who who collects themselves. I think, because you're gonna design, I think most I don't want to say all collectors think the same, that's not true, but I think we all have similar, you know, things we like. So I think the problems happened once someone designs a product that isn't in the hobby or isn't in the trenches, so to speak, right, And so I think that was something that gave you an advantage, as it should be.

And if you ask me, hey, John, someone can design this product that's been in the hobby a long time as a collector, or someone that's just went to art school or a sports fan, you know, I mean that one's a layup for me. I'm gonna take that the hobby person who loves the hobby is passionate about the hobby because they're gonna they're gonna they're gonna have more hits than swings and misses in my book, and they're going to do a better job. And so I think that gave you an advantage. I know you've spoken previously, you know, to some of the store owners being sort of reluctant or hesitant about the product.

How about internally add upper Deck themselves were people like, like you said, you were confident, Hey, I think we can do this. What was the general feeling in the. Room so well, So, the majority of the people that work in the card companies aren't even card collectors. They don't understand cards.

They don't understand people thousands offer cards. You got graphic designers, you've got like project managers, marketing, you've got pre pressed people. So they don't ninety percent of people to ninety five percent don't understand the pricing of cards and aren't card collected. So let's let that be the first thing.

And in fact, a lot of the executives don't even understand the mentality of a collector. So until you start talking to them to things that they collect me, that's the way to get to So. So I would say, those are some. Of my areas where I like to change the collectible or change something to they and explain to them.

So someone likes to collect watches, I go, well, you know what about John Mayer watch, or let's say Daytona right there, Oh yeah, Daytona. I love Daytona's Or you know what if I said there was an attack Natilus watch and Tiffany Blue right, which goes for like six million dollars, Like, okay, you imagine yourself getting on Well, let's equate that to the logoman that we're talking about. Now, you got their attention. Right.

When we pitch ideas to executives that don't understand trading cards, well you got to come up with a different type of metaphor or an idea and tell them like, what if what was in this one? Then you'd be off ward? Yes, I would be off ward. So those are the ways of reaching other people to understand what sports cards is all about. At the end of the day, it's always about demand and supply, supply and demand, right, So the prices are there based on the demand of the of the collectible. Whether sports cards is just the medium that we're looking at, the one that we are focused on, right, it could be fine wine, it could be diamonds, it could be watches, it could be cars, shoes, old books.

They're all the same. I hate to say it, like when we as collectors, we have the same same emotions. You know, if I get a nice watch that I never thought, I have to have the same emotion as something getting the grailcard. The emotions the same, right, and the euphoria, the dopamine hits and all that stuff.

It's all the same. So when when you talk to someone else that's outside of our hobby, try to talk in their terms, try to make them understand. So that was part of the pitch that I had to do on the people at upper Deck. But even then people thought I was crazy.

They always thought that I was at pininia. I got called the mad scientists of all the ideas I have, right, just be able to understand why would you do this? Why would you do this? Why? You know? And at the end of the day, I go instead of saying why to me, why don't you say how? And if so, how how to get to where we want to be? And if it's success successful Because if it's successful, even if I don't want to do it again, you're gonna make me do it again or you gotta get someone else to do it, right, So so those are the questions as how to be successful and if it's successful, what is the end result? We'll do it again? Then, you know, when we did Exquisite, I pitched it as a one, one time only product. Is Lebron rookie, you know. And once something that questioned me.

Was like, oh, you had the best class, you know, And I said, yeah, he goes, what if you you did Exquisite O two, three, or what if you did Exquisite oh four or five? But I didn't, And they're like, yeah, but what if you did? I go, it would never happened. The only reason why Exquisite existed it was because of Lebron, right, and then of course when I created three or four Exquisite, they're like, oh, dude, you put two logo mans together. Look, go out of that space. You couldn't get an autograph, like, come on, you can't come up with a better idea like and I was like, it's going for forty grand for the Kobe Lebron.

At that time, I said, I go, why would I put an autograph on there? I go, number one, it takes up more time. It could be a redemption. Then that's a bummer, right redemption? And I go, but here's the key. If I had to come back with another exclusive O four or five, you don't think I'd bring that idea back, whether two autos.

Obviously, when I'm building products, I always have the I don't know for some reason, I always like have all these ideas like that black book ideas we're talking about, right, all those ideas I have my black book. I have all these ideas where this product doesn't need let's let's wait and see if this performs as well. And every year I want to change it up a little bit. I want to change it up, but I want to pick up the exact same thing, and I want to add some new ideas.

So what did I did? Oh four or five? I had to du a logoman autographs. I had the triple logo man right, and then on top of it, I added one of my favorite inserts. I believe it's an over five. It's exclusive title list, But then titleists don't existed in four or five, and oh five or six, we change it to something else.

So I want every product to be almost distinct in its own Now, yes, it may make one product way better than the other ones, but people like those inserts. But it's also there's some distinctness to every single product. But here's the thing about PMG's. Yes, Upper Deck has done so many pmgs, which is exactly the same the Green, the Red and Looney Tunes and Marvel now dc ae W and multiple years of hockey.

But here's the funny thing about green and green and red pmgs. It only existed in the one year. That's it. Yeah, that was the distinct year.

I don't. I don't, and I'm not doubting that you shouldn't bring it back. You should bring it back, But once again, it was only in that one year. And after that one year, it was so distinct in everyone's memory, essential credentials with the green and the pink or turquoise and red if you want to call it.

That's only the one year, and yet everyone's chasing those cards. So yes, it gives more credits to those years, but at the same time it's unique. I like that. Yeah, and I think it's a great point guard.

It's time for a quick break, but will be right. Iron Sports Guards is your number one source for all your PSA and other grading submissions. There le status improves turnaround times. Heck, they even provide the card savers.

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Sports Combnation has reasons. Sometimes we we I think companies can overdo something right. Something's good to hit on something, and then it's like, you know, they beat that horse to death. I think there's something be said.

And like you said, each innovation of the product brought a new a new thing kind of to that year. And like you mentioned, I thought about that, like, what a terrific year for Exquisite to come out, right, Lebron James, our guy here at Syracuse, Carmello, Anthony and Wade, Like it's a great rookie class. But like and I'm giving you credit here because you deserved it. You had to foresight.

That product was built because of that rookie class. So if someone say, well, why didn't it come out the year before, because it wasn't it wasn't time for that product exact to be birth. And so you know it's it's not it's you know, you got to be smart, You got to make smart decisions. You got and then when that smart decisions made, you got to give that person the credit.

And in this case it's you. You knew this. You kind of saw this coming, this train coming down the track, and you got on board with a great product. Risky, right, but you were willing to take that risk because you knew, Hey, if we went if this thing is a winner, it's going to be a big winner.

It's not going to be a winner. This thing is going to be like Hobby precedent. Did you realize in the moment and early, you know, the years, how big of an impact this product was going to be or not necessarily. Well, initially nobody, no other company did the higher end.

It definitely helps having exclusives at the time we had Michael Jordan, we Bryant on James. Then that's for another time to. Discuss things that I worked with our our team to acquire the proper athlete names school. So I mean, I would say that while during my time at Upper Deck we had the best names Durant, whether it's Kobe's, you know, we haven't Garnett, Greg Yaoming exclusive.

So it was it was, it was. It was a great time to be able to scout ahead of time. So and I take that to today, like I still look at you know, like the class two years from the like I'll tell people, like, you know, next year's not this year, but Cooper Flag. Everyone knows about Cooper Flag.

But the next four big names next year is A. J. Debonsa and the Boozer twins. That's Crubles two children, and then the other one is Darren Peterson.

Right, those are probably potentially three for the top seven picks, right, with three of them being part of the top three. So and I knew about this class with Dylan Harper and Ace Bailey and Cooper Flag and Wemba Yama long like years ago. I mean, these guys are being scouted when they're fourteen years old, fifteen years and if people want a website to go to, go to an NFL's right, NBA draft dot Net. So, NBA draft that net was my go to place when during the whole Lebron years, and it's still my go to place for the initial look at all these international plannder players freshmen, high school freshmens.

So it's it's it's it's it's all marketing at that point, it's all marketing. Seeing that Lebron was going to be the impact I remember like he was the first player to be on an SI covert first high school player to be on an SI cover. That's where I saw it first, right, the chosen I always remember that cover. And on top of that, you know, his his first ever battle, our first ever game against Carmelo was was Saint Vincent Saint Mary against Okill, and I believe they lost to Okill Carmel them.

So and then after that, for his senior year at Saint Vincent Saint Mary, he was televised every single game almost on ESPN two and so you knew us. And that was and that was not common for high school basketball games to be on a major network like that. So you know, times were times were changing. Like I said, you had the foresight, like even though this was getting coverage.

It's one thing, you know, watching him play, right, but to to develop the product based on kind of what you kind of what you saw in advance, you know, no one else did it right there there, you know. So so just to give you something that I did in two all right, So I knew that the class everyone if you if you looked at NBA draft dot net. And then after the workout that Darko had with the Detroit Pistons and they went to the finals that year, It was always slated that the top four to five picks like d Wade came on after the final four, right because they I believe they beat Connecticut. I believe.

Yeah, so they into the final four, and you know, guys like TJ. For Kirk, k Heinrich and all those other guys they came up like also as part of the the final four. But Darkole. What's interesting about Darko is that I said to the to our legal counsel, I said, hey, maybe we should get Darkos signed to it.

And this is in twenty two thousand and two, a year before the draft, right, and they're like, they're like why and I go, uh, well, first off, check if he has so I go, I think there's a lot of new agents that have the europe like the access to European players. And sure enough they said yeah, but this is that Initially they didn't want to do a deal because they said, hey, he's you can't do a deal with them. I go, why, he's a professional, he's playing in Europe, and so what we can offer is a bolold of money upfront and then he signs an exclusive autograph deal handshake. No one knows about it until someone else like Lebron.

So we did that deal almost like nine months before the draft, and no one knew about it because and not that because I, you know, I think that Darko is going to be a highly collectible player, but I would love to have the first three. And in fact, Carmel Anthony signed exclusive deal with upper Deck. He signed a deal then that was before Lebron signed with upper Deck. And then Lebron's story with upper Deck's deal was broadcasted by Stuart Scott at eleven o'clock East Coast time and stating that that was the opening, the opening of a sports center was Lebron has signed his first endorsement with upper Deck.

Call upper Deck, then one name, one name company with Mike, with MJ Kobe, E Truro, we had everyone Tiger right, And then they were announced that they said all the numbers expected was five years for five million dollars. And what I heard the story was the rumor is that I had it did was substantiatebody else they said. Carmelo basically called up Lebron and said, hey, this is true the numbers and Lebron. I don't know what Lebron said, but probably yeah, it probably is.

I don't know the details right. The next day we got a call from his agent, A Carmelo's working up. He's not doing it exclusive. Right wise we would we would have had the exclusive top three in that.

So yeah, so they ripped the deal, basically, said Carmelo's Friending said, okay, for the basis if I really go ahead, and when I think we end up paying him more money than he would have gotten, you know I would have I would have given more money for Carmelo exclusively any time. It's tough because we weren't expecting to pay a million doctor money either back in a three. Now it seems like nothing, right, but back then it was a tough. That's what I'm saying.

It's it's it's tough to compare errors. But uh, you know, obviously that product stands alone to this day and and we can look at some of the products we have today carbon and say, hey, they may not be here if it wasn't for uh exquisite. And so I know you've talked about that a lot, but deservedly so, because I think I don't think people realized the I don't want to say going out in the limb, but you know, it was a risky proposition, right, and nothing Like you said, not everything you did was hit. But this was a big ticket item with a with a big priced egg, and so had it not been, thankfully it was.

But had it not been hindsight being twenty, had it not been a success, you know, it would have been, uh, you know, a bigger a bigger hit. Uh. Not being a success and on the same token being a hit and being a success, it's even bigger for the same same reason. So I think we you know, I know you probably had tired and sometimes probably tired of talking about it, but I think it's also your baby, so you're proud of it.

You're proud of it too. That's important to know. But uh, last question, I don't ask this of every guest. I kind of picked my guests here on the question.

It's not a real item, but in for the show it is. It's called the I called the Hobby Magic one. I give it to certain guests. I'm giving it to you.

You only get one hobby wish. You can't win for three more hobby with it. I can't use it for that that way, so you can do whatever you want with it. Wish.

Where's it's like I dream a Jenie, but you get one, and it has to be hobby related. Something you want. You don't want to see any more of. You want to see more of an item you want.

It's your hobby, magic wand what are you doing with well? I always look at the hobby as the hobby is, the hobby has been. I've been blessed with the hobby that's given a lot to me. And what I would want to see is more products really designed with the collector. You know, it's more about creating those cards that people want, the aesthetics, the rarity, the products that deliver, and that's what it is.

We want the collectors to have the true hobby. I always say that there's three types of value. There's the perceived value and you open the pack and it's a number out of one hundred, and you're looking at concert number tow one hundred, one hundred dollars or could be ten dollars, right, but you're like, oh, I got a hundred dollars card. It sleeping packs.

And then there's the real value where you when you sell the card or you know that this is the right comps for these cards, that's the real value. But more than anything else. I always call it the entertaining experience. You know, I really want the hobby to take how to open a box of cards? Maybe not join Sometimes you don't always have to embreak open a box of cards and experience touching the cards and enjoying it, whether it's with friends, family, other collectors, and really collecting something that you truly want to collect, not because everyone else is right.

Chances are, like I said, I when I created cards, I create cards that I want to collect, and guess what other people want to collect them? Right? And be a leader, be that person to say I want to collect that right, but also with that in mind, understand the true hobby trends. Understand what is a rookie card, what isn't a rookie? Don't get fool don't fall for false narratives, right, And if you need to, you can always reach out to John, You can always reach out to me. You can always find other people be mentors to help you treat you the right way, because the problem is that if you start following narratives that other people have and it's wrong, you're you're gonna feel burnt and you're gonna feel deceived and we don't want to anyone believe in you. We want to embrace you all, but make sure that you understand with some education, some mentorship to help you look at what is what you really want to collect and don't fall for what other people want.

Only collect what you That's what, that's what this. Uh. I love it, well said uh. And it's it's a great point too, right, is this is your your hobby, your collection.

You're the see you know, we're each the CEO of what we collect in the hobby, right, And that's the one great thing about the hobby. Well, there's a lot of great but one of the great things about the hobby there are a lot of people yourself, myself and many others that will try to help people out right, not tell people what to do, but just hey, think about this or here's what I think about that. But at the end of the day, you have to make the decision that's best for how you want a hobby, how your collection, you know, how you want your build your collection. You know, sometimes every once in a while someone will message me carving, like hey, John, I'm getting a little burnt out or I'm thinking about getting out and I don't tell like, I don't like you just said, I don't want them to leave.

I'll just say, listen, none wrong with taking a break, go don't even do anything hobby wise for three months, four months, two week, whatever you deem you need to, like, decompress and then come back and see or see if you miss it, chances are you probably going to right and then come back, or hey, I just don't like the direction I'm going in with my hobby. Try something different, try something you maybe thought about, pivot to to hobby a different way, right rather rather than just leave. If you but if someone you know you've tried different things and if it's not enjoyable, then that's something else. But you know, there's different ways to go about it.

So I do have a personal a personal hobbywand. That I would like, all right, go ahead, go ahead. So here's my personal hobby Wand the last product I created with twenty fourteen, I don't know twenty twelve thirteen was the last true product that was called the maclick. And if you guys want to read my Instagram, you the story how a Maclicka cuestion came about.

It's actually a tribute to Madonna, which Madonna's first ever Greatest Hits album was called the Maclick. It was a she was a favorite of mine when I was a DJ. So that's why there's the assetate resembles vinyl. So so going back to some of my some of my products have stories behind them, even going to Exquisite Black other other sets to what I would like to bring back to the hobbies, because if my story isn't bshed yet and I havening a different card set, so I would love to be able to come back and which hopefully will you know, even be better than imatly other brands like or a cup hockey.

So something unique and innovative and hopefully spur up some interest in the hobby. Again, well i'd be I'd be first in line for that or signed the petition uh to to make it happen. Carl, I think listen to track records. There it speaks for itself.

You don't even have to say nothing. You could just name the products, say hey, I was involved in that and that that That should be enough to most And you know, like you said, innovation and and and thought process is all important. You've shown, you know a track record of getting that done. And thinking outside the box, thinking maybe even in advance of time one or two years.

So uh, I think the proof is into putting, as the cliche goes, but uh it's true, so hopefully, uh that's the case. And uh, you know this was I had a blast. Uh. You know, while I knew certain things, I learned some more stuff as always in right, that's that's what the hobby's about.

I don't care how long you've been in this hobby. Uh. I learned something new every day. I'm sure you do too.

And in the minute I always joke with people. The minute I stop, it means I'm not paying attention or I don't care anymore, and that's probably a sign it might be time to hang up the cards. So so uh now hopefully not happening anytime soon. And I love to have you back on.

I know we can get even more in depth with with you know, we get into like like you mentioned some contract stuff and you know all that. So but again, Carvin, I should add you on sooner my bad, but better late than ever. And thank you for sharing. I give the guests always kind of the final word.

Give out any social media website, anywhere you want to share with those listening to check out put that stuff out there. Well, I mean, obviously you guys can DM me on Instagram at k A r v I N fifteenth if you want to reach out and say hi or ask me questions, you can. There are certain things that I will not for the purpose for your information, but it's for my information but not everyone else's information. So but with that being said, you know, like just love the hobby man.

I'm you know what, we all want to embrace you. We all enjoy people, everybody involved. We love the content that you guys create. But also be careful of the false narratives, right just you know, if it's if it's hobby hobby trends, and you know, you know, these are good ways of you know, advising people how to collect that's the way to do.

Be careful providing them the wrong way. And you know, if you if you need to ask questions, you know, I always trust the old Basically the hobby hobby trends and a lot of these trends were set back in the days in the nineties or even throughout the two thousand. We have inserts and and all the r pas and all. That follow follow that.

So that, you know, the last one we want to see is people not not getting what they wanted. So and once again, collect you know what you like. Uh, don't listen to everyone tell you what to collect or what to buy. You make your own decisions.

Collect what player you want and move on. I mean, be part of the community, Be a strong support of the community. That's it. Yeah, And I can add to that, man, that's well said and rings true.

And uh, that's your collection. You gotta you gotta like it. It's not anyone else's and you're spending your money on it, so hopefully you do enjoy. And so not much to add on there that truer words can't be spoken.

So thanks again, Carvin, Thank you. I appreciate what a great conversation with Carvin. Guy is number one, smart, sharp as a whip, and you know, remembers these things like yesterday because he was right there in the trenches getting things done again. Should have had him on sooner.

That's I mean, we've we've talked it just I don't know, I dragged my feet, so my bad on me. But glad we had him on and and love to have him back. And I think we will get more into like some of the the stories, kind of the behind the scenes, a little more specifics even with some of the products and and maybe things you didn't know as well. So uh but you know, still active in the hobby, still has a passion and loves the hobby and that's that's awesome.

So thanks him. Thanks to Carvin for making some time and sharing some of his insights. We're going to hear from our hobbies the People Announcer and then wrap up this week's episode. Time for our hobby is the People Announcer of the week.

Hello collectors, This is Said Green from Sacred Home Sports Cards. Remember the hobby is the people. If you'd like to be the hobby is the People Announcer of the week to one four MP three file and send it to Sportscott Nation PC at gmail dot com. Okase I don't see you.

Good afternoon, good evening, and good night. For nearly fifty years, Sports Collectors Digest has been the voice of the hobby, bringing you comprehensive coverage of the sports collectible industry from industry news, auction results, market analysis, and in depth stories about collectors and their collections. Sports Collectors Digest has everything. You need to know about the hobby.

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