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Sports Guard Nations.
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Hobby is the People weekly news and interviews.
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It's your number one soul sports Guarnation.
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Hobby is the People.
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Sports Guardation. What us up, everybody? Welcome to Episode three
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sixty seven Sports Cardination. My guest this week has been
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on the show before. He'll be on the show again.
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He'll be on the show the next four episodes. They
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are smaller episodes, so don't panic. That's why we recorded
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one long conversation. But I'm gonna make four episodes out
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of them this week. In the next three I think
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you'll find them. The episodes very interesting, to say the least.
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My guests the Hobby lawyer Paul LESCo, and we're gonna
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talk about some of the litigation going on currently in
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the Hobby pertaining to the hobby. And Paul is obviously
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a lawyer. We don't you just don't call yourself the
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Hobby lawyer and not be a lawyer, just like I'm
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not Doctor Newman, MD, because I'm not. But he is
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a practicing attorney, a very smart and knowledgeable one and
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a great guy and always love having him on. And
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so in the next four weeks again, the episodes are
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gonna range fifteen to twenty two minutes. We're gonna chop
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up some of these cases and what it might mean
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for the hobby, and some of these cases you may
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be very familiar with and others maybe not as much.
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Some of the cases we're not gonna all talk about
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him on this particular episode. Some of the case you
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can hear about is, hey, where's my honus Wagner PSA
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damaged my Kobe card, LOLCNA versus up Panini versus Fanatics,
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wild Card versus Panini, my PSA nine I want to
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be PSA ten's in the Spiegel Golden Case. So, you know,
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you may not realize a lot of litigation hobby wise
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going on in courthouses around the country. And while you
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may not be into that stuff, and I get it,
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I get it. You know, has nothing to do with
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your card collection directly per se, but it does have
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a direct correlation on the hobby and what might happen
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in the future and what these companies may or may
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may not be able to do in the future based
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on the outcomes of these court cases. Right, So we're
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gonna chop up some of these each week the next
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four weeks, starting with today and I'm calling today's episode, dude,
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where's my hous And I think you'll find it very
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interesting and uh, you know, I'll say this at the
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end too, but let me let me know what you
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think about today's topic of litigation, and I'll just tease
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you with that. It's definitely a very very interesting case.
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And when I learned all the details about it, uh,
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it was why did someone wait that long to follow it?
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That's that's as much of a tease as I'm gonna
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give you. So, Uh, we're gonna get Paul LESCo on
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and we wanna chop up that case.
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Thanks everybody enjoyed the show.
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I always love having the next Gentleman on this podcast.
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He is a multi time alumnus of the show, and
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it's been a bit since we've had him on again,
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and there's a lot of new stuff to to bat
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around here, and uh, we know him and and love
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him as the hobby lawyer. Paul Esco, welcome back as always.
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Well, thanks for having me back on, John. It's it's
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it's been.
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Too lot, Yeah it has, and that's my fault. So
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I'll I'll tell I'll fall.
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On the We're all, we're all, We're all to and uh,
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you know, obviously we call him the hobby Lawyer, and
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uh he's he's obviously a lawyer and a hobbyist, and
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he loves to really break down some of the ongoing.
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Litigation going on when it pertains uh to the hobby.
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And you know, like I spoke to him before we're recording,
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whether you're into this stuff or not, right it, this
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still is important to present toense of the hobby and
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in the future of the hobby. So while some may
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have more of an interest in these kinds of conversations,
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that doesn't diminish the importance of these cases and decisions
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when they come uh involving this case, Uh, these cases
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and so uh, like I said, it's been a bit
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so we definitely got some stuff too to toss around. Uh,
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and uh I love I love Paul because he makes
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it easy to understand, right. I think sometimes when we
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get into like legal ease and litigation, people can be
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intimidated and like I'm not gonna understand it or what
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the deck's going on or what does this mean? But
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you have a wonderful way of sort of making that
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consumable even in your your social media. You're very detailed
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and and and obviously for both wise even even more so.
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So U let's start No, you're you're welcome. It's true.
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Let's start off with a question. You know, AI is
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a huge topic across many, uh many different facets and
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and and topics and and and different things. Right, it's huge, right,
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and it's it's got its good points and it's bad
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points both. And I just you know, we uh we
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got you know, people can cheat with chat gtph GPT
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on like school work or course work. You can almost
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you can do like like these fake videos that almost
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looked real.
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Uh.
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I got to ask you, Paul, please tell me there's
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no lawyer GPT or lawyer AI to replace one Paul
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LESCo and other lawyers who did their their work and
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got their law degrees, uh and and and things like that.
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Well, luckily at this time no, and some there have
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been actually some cases where people have argued that chat
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GPT is my lawyer. I'm relying on chat peet chat
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GPT for what I'm doing. And there was a recent
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decision that came down where a judge said, no lawyers
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are licensed.
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Lawyers go to law school, they're taking the bar exam.
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Chat geep, so chat GPT, at least as of now,
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is not a lawyer. However, too many people are relying
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on chat g as their lawyer and it's starting to
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affect the hobby litigation.
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In the hobby Now when that's when that ruling comes down,
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where judge says, listen, you you chat GDP is not
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official you know license legal attorney can't be used. Does
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that set the precedence where that that speaks for the
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like that ends that that as a potential down the
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line or not necessarily.
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It's you know, it's it's already been a standard rule
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that in order to represent somebody else in court you
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have to be a license, you have to have passed
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a bar exam.
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So that's always been the rule. So when people are.
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Trying to rely on ai uh, that's where that rule
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comes in. So it's really just judges clarifying that no,
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chat gd is not a substitute for an attorney. And
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you know, part of the reason isn't just because it's
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not a person. It hasn't gone a little, but it
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also goes It makes a lot of missing, gets a lot.
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Of people no that the attorney themselves is not taking
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that case for a client like that that chat GDP
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can be officially viewed as legal. I would hope not.
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They're kind of they're practicing against their own profession if
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they would represent someone that's claiming that or you trying
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to use them.
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Yeah, no, And it happens a lot on both sides
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of the fence. So there's there's a couple of cases
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out there right now currently having to do with trading
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cards where you have pro SA plaintiffs. Those are plaintiffs
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that are in court without lawyers. They're representing themselves, and
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it appears that they are using chat GPT to generate
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their plans, to generate their argument, and it's getting them,
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it's getting them into a little bit of trouble in
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their cases. But also there is at least one example
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where lawyers were using chat cheep to make their workload
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lighter and they got caught during doing it because the
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chat GBT created made up precedent and the lawyers did
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go back, they didn't check up on it.
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And it's fascinating.
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It was actually a case against Panini and the lawyers
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on the other side filed a brief and in the
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brief was a bunch of case slam and Panini's response
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to that brief was, your honor, I think we think
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AI wrote this because none of these cases exist.
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We looked them up, they don't exist, and they cited
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them to us.
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And in that case, the judge actually reprimanded the lawyers
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on the other side. So so it's not just people
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without attorneys relying on chat, GPT or other AI. There
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are some lawyers out there that are doing it too,
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and at least as of now, probably don't want to do.
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I was gonna that was my next question. Yeah, and
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you mentioned like the judge, you know, sort of scolded
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the lawyers for using that tactic. Can can there be
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harsher Obviously you're not gonna get this barred. That's harsh.
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There be like a financial fine or can.
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There there there has been? There were two cases. There's
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multiple cases that are out there. The Pinini case that
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one by itself, the judge not only reprimanded the lawyers,
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he required them to report it to the bar, So
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they had to tell the bar that they, yeah, yeah,
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that they relied on on chat cheap, they got case
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law that didn't exist, and they relied in case law
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that didn't exist. But beyond that, and I follow this
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because it's fascinating. It seems like every day there are
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lawyers and other types of litigation that are getting sanctioned.
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And it seems like the standard is about fifteen hundred
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dollars lawyers getting sanctioned for inventing cases or relying on
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AI that invented cases. So, yeah, there's been a lot
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of lawyers and sanctioned relying on AI.
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And so those sanctions would come from the bar itself
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that would be.
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There the lawyers themselves or the law firm itself will
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have to pay that.
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Yeah, can the bar, like you you mentioned like they
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have to self report they're indiscretion to the bar. What
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can the can the bar do? Obviously, if it's the
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first time offence, maybe a slap on the wrist, like
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you're you're better than that, don't don't. But if if,
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if this, if a lawyer an attorney becomes sort of
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a repeat offender, can there be even more serious repercussions?
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There could be because the one the number one thing
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that the bar is looking at is are you zealously
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representing your clients? Because not when a lawyer is relying
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on case. While that's been fabricated or you know, it
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doesn't exist. They're hurting their client's case. So maybe in
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an instance where it was a motion that didn't really
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matter that much to the case, it's more embarrassing than
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anything else. That'll be something where the bar exam says, okay,
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you know, just this is this is your your one strike.
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You know, you know we're we're gonna watch you. Now,
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if it was done in an instance where it really
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hurt a client's case, uh, you know, a bar, the
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bar might look at it a little bit more different.
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But at least as of now, and I'm not ultimately
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current on this, I don't think anybody has yet.
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Been disbarred for relying on AI.
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But it's only been around for a couple of years
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right now, so it's only you know, i'd say mainstream
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use for the last you know, year and a half
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two years, especially in the legal field.
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Legal field is very late to adopt a lot of technologies.
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So it wouldn't shock me within the next year if
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we don't start seeing people if it already hasn't happened.
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See some lawyers as marred due to their reliance on
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a especially if they're repeat defenders.
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How easy is it to tell? Like I've used it
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for some like social media, like making graphics and stuff,
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not so much for writing, but like like if something
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crosses your desk. I mean, how easy do you think
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it is necessarily to tell? Or I guess it depends
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on every situation is different to you. You think it's good?
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Yeah, no, I see it actually quite a bit.
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And so for some of my clients, what I do
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is I represent copyright holders like artists, and invariably there
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are a lot of infringers that are that are out there.
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Some are you know, small infringers on eBay or other
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places like that.
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So you know, part of my job is to shut.
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Them down, get into communication with them, and you know,
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explain to them that you're you know, you're ripping off
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my client's rights.
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Need to stop.
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I'd say probably one out of every three tries to
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respond to you with chat gee some type of response
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like that.
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So I've gotten pretty.
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Attuned to seeing what a chat GPT response is. And
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you could tell because as a lawyer, you're taught to
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You're taught to, you know, point to the statute you're
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relying on, point to the case law that you're relying
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on point to the specific facts that are in your favor.
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A chat GPT response is more going.
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To be along the lines of, well, as everybody knows,
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there's this general this, this this, and you can really
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00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:48.360
quickly get to the point that they're using the AI
246
00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:50.399
and get around it by saying, Okay, I need you
247
00:13:50.440 --> 00:13:52.600
decide to a case to me, I need you decide
248
00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:55.480
to the facts that actually support you here, because you
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00:13:55.600 --> 00:13:58.639
really you're you're regurgitating a lot of stuff that sounds
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00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:00.440
like you know what you're talking about, which you're not
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00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:02.519
saying anything. And then when you get to the point
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00:14:02.559 --> 00:14:05.399
of where they have to specifically identify case law and
253
00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:08.399
their support, the support the position or facts, they normally
254
00:14:08.399 --> 00:14:10.120
can't do that, and that's the point when they settle.
255
00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:17.919
Yeah, so you can't fool Paul LESCo folks. Time, all right,
256
00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:21.639
let's listen. Let's before we get into litigation, which I
257
00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:23.879
enjoy and I know quite a bit of people do.
258
00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:27.799
I know a lot of your personal collection comes off
259
00:14:27.879 --> 00:14:31.559
of some of this litigation without you know, when we
260
00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:34.360
can cover some of these cases, But has there been
261
00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:39.120
any new PC items you know on the target lists
262
00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:41.960
as a result, Well, some of these.
263
00:14:42.519 --> 00:14:44.600
I do have quite a bit actually so, but this
264
00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:48.879
is my current pride and joy. So I picked this
265
00:14:48.919 --> 00:14:52.720
one up the National this year. I chase this card
266
00:14:51.759 --> 00:14:56.279
since twenty eleven. So it is a card that was
267
00:14:56.320 --> 00:14:59.559
involved in a lawsuit that was brought against Tops by
268
00:14:59.600 --> 00:15:05.200
a form Pops employee saying you utilized my image on
269
00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:08.080
cards without my permission. And why it was so difficult
270
00:15:08.120 --> 00:15:10.080
for me to get that card is because there were
271
00:15:10.120 --> 00:15:13.679
only five of those cards that were made and back
272
00:15:13.720 --> 00:15:16.600
in twenty eleven. The card popped up right when the
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00:15:16.639 --> 00:15:18.799
lawsuit was and it was on eBay, And at that
274
00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:21.799
point I hadn't spent even close to one hundred dollars
275
00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:24.039
on a card. I was, you know, just I wasn't
276
00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:27.000
spending much money on collecting and it was back in
277
00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:28.840
the good old days where you didn't have to really
278
00:15:28.919 --> 00:15:30.360
spend that much money to get good cards.
279
00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:30.639
Yeah.
280
00:15:30.879 --> 00:15:32.440
So I saw the card.
281
00:15:32.519 --> 00:15:34.240
It was on eBay and it was going for two
282
00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:36.679
hundred dollars, and in my head, I'm like, I can't
283
00:15:36.759 --> 00:15:39.320
justify spending two hundred dollars for this card.
284
00:15:39.679 --> 00:15:40.759
It's numbered out of five.
285
00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:43.720
It might take a while another one will pop up
286
00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:47.000
on the guarantee. Well, no, I was wrong. Another one
287
00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:50.240
never never popped up again. And the only reason I
288
00:15:51.039 --> 00:15:54.440
got this card is because every year before the national
289
00:15:54.759 --> 00:15:57.960
I whined and I whined and complained about, Hey, this
290
00:15:58.120 --> 00:15:59.399
is like my white whale.
291
00:15:59.480 --> 00:16:02.639
I can't find this card. Does anybody have aids on it?
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00:16:02.759 --> 00:16:05.559
And somebody reached out and said he'd seen my posts,
293
00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:07.720
you know, for a few years, and you know, and
294
00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:10.039
he finally said, okay, you know what, you know this card.
295
00:16:10.120 --> 00:16:11.440
I can get this card to a good person, you know,
296
00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:13.559
somebody who's actually going to enjoy the card and actually
297
00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:15.879
love the card more than I would. So we were
298
00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:19.679
actually able to put together a trade and get it done.
299
00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:21.879
So that is that is the glowing part of my
300
00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:25.200
collection right now. It is it was my white whale.
301
00:16:25.240 --> 00:16:27.639
I was able to cure it. And really since that,
302
00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:31.799
I have this like profound sense of finality where I'm
303
00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:34.759
not on eBay every day. Now I've got what I need,
304
00:16:34.840 --> 00:16:36.799
you know. So so I really need to have that
305
00:16:36.919 --> 00:16:40.120
next lawsuit that comes up with an obtainable card, you know,
306
00:16:40.279 --> 00:16:42.080
something I can add to the collection, because I think
307
00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:43.759
a couple of the cases we're going to talk about
308
00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:47.240
today they're not obtainable cards because the cards are you know,
309
00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:50.240
several million dollars worth. That's that will never get into
310
00:16:50.240 --> 00:16:52.480
my collection. However, if you have a card that's worth
311
00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:55.039
you know, a couple hundred dollars and there's only one
312
00:16:55.200 --> 00:16:56.879
or five of those that are out there.
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00:16:56.879 --> 00:16:59.440
I think that'll be a good card to add as
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00:16:59.480 --> 00:16:59.759
a few.
315
00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:03.240
And I remember when you posted about finally getting it.
316
00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:08.279
That's awesome and the search is over, as Survivor saying
317
00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:11.880
in one of their songs, right, And but like you said,
318
00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:14.400
you know, stuff was maybe a little bit. Certain things
319
00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:17.759
are a little cheaper eleven years ago than they are today.
320
00:17:17.799 --> 00:17:21.319
So whatever the next you know, Paul Lasco target card
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00:17:21.559 --> 00:17:24.160
is probably going to be maybe a little bit more
322
00:17:24.559 --> 00:17:28.440
than that one. You never know, you know, unfortunately, every
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00:17:28.519 --> 00:17:30.039
situation is different.
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00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:34.759
You are listening to the Sportscard Nation podcast. Will be
325
00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:39.839
right back after this break. For nearly fifty years, Sports
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00:17:39.839 --> 00:17:43.039
Collectors Digest has been the voice of the hobby, bringing
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00:17:43.079 --> 00:17:47.519
you comprehensive coverage of the sports collectible industry from industry news,
328
00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:51.720
auction results, market analysis, and in depth stories about collectors
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00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:56.079
and their collections. Sports Collectors Digest has everything you need
330
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to know about the hobby. SCD is also your leading
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source for listings of sports collectible dealers, card shops, card shows,
332
00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:07.960
and the latest from the industry's top companies. To check
333
00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:10.839
out all the latest news or to subscribe to the
334
00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:15.880
hobby's oldest magazine, visit Sports Collectorsdigest dot com or call
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00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:24.160
one eight hundred eight two nine fifty five sixty one.
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We back.
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Well, let me ask you this, I'll acqusk to you.
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You're you're giving of your time of show. Where do
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00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:35.119
you want to start off here? Litigation wise?
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What do you know?
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00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:39.400
Let's let's let's continue with that AI topic, because there's
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00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:42.480
a couple of pro say cases that are out there,
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00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:45.160
actually more than one of three prose's that are out
344
00:18:45.160 --> 00:18:49.880
there that I am not one certain that they're AI cases,
345
00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:53.279
but I believe that they are AI cases, or that
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00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:56.799
the plaintiffs in those cases, who don't have lawyers who
347
00:18:56.839 --> 00:19:01.000
are representing themselves, are relying on chat G or.
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00:19:00.920 --> 00:19:03.440
Another AI, and I don't think it's it's helping them much.
349
00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:06.440
So the first case I want to talk about is
350
00:19:06.920 --> 00:19:10.359
the case that I've called that Beckett lost my T
351
00:19:10.359 --> 00:19:15.240
two O six Honus Wagner twelve years ago. And this
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00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:18.920
is a case where The plaintiff alleges that twelve years
353
00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:23.680
ago he had car, he bought some cards, and I
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00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:26.880
don't exactly remember where he got the cards, but he
355
00:19:27.119 --> 00:19:29.359
within the cards that he had, one of them was
356
00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:31.920
a T two O six Honus Wagner. And so he
357
00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:35.119
submitted that card with a bunch of other cards to
358
00:19:35.240 --> 00:19:39.200
Beckett to get graded and to get authenticated, and he
359
00:19:39.279 --> 00:19:41.960
didn't get the Honus Wagner. He alleges he never got
360
00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:45.160
the Honus Wagner back, and he just assumed that if
361
00:19:45.160 --> 00:19:47.720
he didn't get it back, it wasn't authentic, and he
362
00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:51.519
just forgot about for twelve years until he logged into his.
363
00:19:51.559 --> 00:19:54.720
I Gotta stop you, p I gotta stop you even
364
00:19:54.799 --> 00:19:58.559
twelve years ago. Like, I know that card has went
365
00:19:58.680 --> 00:20:01.680
more in receives than and past you, but that car
366
00:20:01.759 --> 00:20:05.359
didn't sneak up on anyone like that car. And I
367
00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:08.759
know you're gonna get into the nuts and bolts, but
368
00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:11.160
that's not a card. When it doesn't come back, you
369
00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:14.799
don't say, hey, where's my Honus Wagner card, or you
370
00:20:14.920 --> 00:20:18.559
at least would ask an explanation even if you thought, well,
371
00:20:18.839 --> 00:20:21.920
it was obviously fake. And that's what they like you
372
00:20:21.960 --> 00:20:25.599
would still question like, all right, where is it? And frankly,
373
00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:28.119
I still want it back. I still want like it's
374
00:20:28.200 --> 00:20:31.680
my card, fake or legit like and then like you
375
00:20:31.720 --> 00:20:34.960
said to all these double digit years later, that just
376
00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:38.160
to me, again, I'm not a lawyer, That's why you're here,
377
00:20:38.599 --> 00:20:40.880
But to me, I would like that shouldn't even like
378
00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:44.839
why are you waiting that long to like now bring
379
00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:48.480
it to litigation? But good, I just wanted to chime
380
00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:50.920
into because here and you say that, that's how my
381
00:20:51.079 --> 00:20:53.559
mind works, like, yeah, where you've been, Like have you
382
00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:56.319
been in a coma? Yeah, I mean you woke up
383
00:20:56.359 --> 00:20:57.680
and said, oh I meant to do this.
384
00:20:58.039 --> 00:21:00.240
But I mean so twelve years ago, I mean I'm
385
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:05.000
pretty sure twelve years ago that's when the Mastro trial
386
00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:07.759
was ongoing, and part of that was, you know, there
387
00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:10.000
was a lot of talk about did he know, did
388
00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:12.759
he trim or did he not trim a Honus Wagner card.
389
00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:15.400
So I mean even back then, it was still the
390
00:21:15.640 --> 00:21:17.640
and I'm not sure when ps and that was the
391
00:21:17.720 --> 00:21:20.119
number one card, the first card that PSA grated if
392
00:21:20.119 --> 00:21:22.440
I remember correctly, So it's yeah, that car is not
393
00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:23.480
sneaking up on anything.
394
00:21:23.559 --> 00:21:24.960
That's that's a well known card.
395
00:21:25.240 --> 00:21:29.400
But he the plaintiff alleges that twelve years later he
396
00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:32.200
logged into his Beckett account and he says that the
397
00:21:32.200 --> 00:21:35.519
Becket account said that the card was authenticate. That act
398
00:21:35.559 --> 00:21:39.359
that Beckett said it was authentic. So at that point
399
00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:42.599
he contacted Beckett. He says, hey, where's my card? I
400
00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:45.559
want my card back? And Beckett says, well, it was
401
00:21:45.599 --> 00:21:48.880
not authenticated. We couldn't authenticate it. We didn't think it
402
00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:51.480
was real. And if it didn't get back to you,
403
00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:53.640
well it got lost in the mail. And because it
404
00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:56.880
happened so long ago, we don't have paperwork about it.
405
00:21:57.160 --> 00:21:59.240
That ax doesn't have any paper work about it or
406
00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:02.119
whatever currier, nobody has a new paperwork about it. So
407
00:22:02.200 --> 00:22:06.400
that didn't make the plantiff happy. So he sued Beckett
408
00:22:06.440 --> 00:22:09.720
over the card and that lawsuit is what's going on.
409
00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:12.039
I mean, and you kind of hit the nail on
410
00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:15.720
the head. There's there's a defense. There's a legal defense
411
00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:19.240
out there called the statute alimitate. You have to bring
412
00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:21.880
a lawsuit within a certain time pier and the reason
413
00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:26.359
those exist is because judges want issues before them that
414
00:22:26.680 --> 00:22:29.480
have that are ripe, where you have like the most
415
00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:33.920
materials are available, witnesses are still alive, documents still exist,
416
00:22:34.279 --> 00:22:37.799
it's so fresh in everybody's head. As time goes on,
417
00:22:38.319 --> 00:22:41.920
you lose documents, people pass away, people's memories. So that's
418
00:22:41.960 --> 00:22:44.599
why you have the statute of limitation built in. And
419
00:22:44.680 --> 00:22:47.440
as you can imagine, that's what Beckett has been pounding
420
00:22:47.480 --> 00:22:49.680
the whole time, you know, regardless as to what the
421
00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:52.559
merits are. You know, first of all, we deny everything
422
00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:55.640
that the plaintiff is a llegend. However, he's out a time.
423
00:22:55.880 --> 00:22:58.720
Because he's out of time, we should win. And that's
424
00:22:58.799 --> 00:23:01.200
been a real fight and the case has been kind
425
00:23:01.240 --> 00:23:04.759
of a fun one to watch too, because the plaintiff
426
00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:07.400
in that case, since he's not a lawyer, is unfamiliar
427
00:23:07.480 --> 00:23:10.880
with the legal system. He's been making he's been rather
428
00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:15.640
aggressive and has actually filed five motion sanction in the case.
429
00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:18.000
It's only been pending for six months I think six
430
00:23:18.039 --> 00:23:21.240
total months, and he's brought five motions for sanction. To
431
00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:23.720
put that in the perspective, twenty five years I've been
432
00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:27.279
practicing law, I've only filed two motions for sage, so
433
00:23:27.640 --> 00:23:30.079
he's more than double. He's lapped me. And then it's
434
00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:33.240
halfway to lapping me again with the number of emotions
435
00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:35.720
for sanctions that he's filed for and the judges denied
436
00:23:35.720 --> 00:23:37.960
them up. But what was interesting is we had an
437
00:23:38.119 --> 00:23:41.039
order come down yesterday where a lot of the motions
438
00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:47.160
for sanction he's alleging, Hey, beckettsecivenmini documents, they're destroying evidence,
439
00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:50.039
blah blah blah, all these other The judges pretty much said, hey,
440
00:23:50.119 --> 00:23:51.440
we'll get to it in the case. We'll get to
441
00:23:51.440 --> 00:23:53.240
it in the case you need to talk to them.
442
00:23:53.240 --> 00:23:56.599
But one thing that the judge said is, I do
443
00:23:56.680 --> 00:24:00.440
want some documents that have to in particular, I want
444
00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:04.359
to see the you know, I want to see where
445
00:24:04.359 --> 00:24:06.799
this card was, who had the card, who was in
446
00:24:06.799 --> 00:24:09.079
possession of the card. I want to see the chain
447
00:24:09.079 --> 00:24:12.359
of custod from both sides. Now, normally with a motion
448
00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:15.319
to dismiss the statute limitations, you don't get any The
449
00:24:15.319 --> 00:24:18.079
cases ends really quickly. So I thought it was pretty
450
00:24:18.920 --> 00:24:22.240
interesting that the judge at least wanted the parties to
451
00:24:22.279 --> 00:24:25.960
exchange that type of document before he rules on the motion.
452
00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:29.079
But I think ultimately, too much time has spent twelve
453
00:24:29.160 --> 00:24:33.359
years of best there's very very few, if any claims
454
00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:36.559
out there that would survive twelve years. So I think
455
00:24:36.599 --> 00:24:39.680
that's I think the case. Ultimately, I think Beckett will
456
00:24:39.720 --> 00:24:42.640
win the case. But to go along the AI side,
457
00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:46.440
at some point, Beckett did argue that some of the
458
00:24:46.519 --> 00:24:51.000
cases that the plaintiff argued are cases that don't exist.
459
00:24:51.039 --> 00:24:54.519
So because of that, they're alleging he's relying on AI
460
00:24:55.000 --> 00:24:57.400
in generating the plant. If denies it. But I think
461
00:24:57.400 --> 00:25:01.200
it ties in together with this whole AI, you know,
462
00:25:01.599 --> 00:25:03.839
in the hobby, and I think we're gonna start seeing
463
00:25:03.880 --> 00:25:05.599
a lot More's a couple of cases on going in
464
00:25:05.640 --> 00:25:06.480
with it right now.
465
00:25:06.680 --> 00:25:08.160
I think we're gonna see a lot more of these.
466
00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:10.839
I don't know if you can answer this question, Paul,
467
00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:14.240
Do you know did Beckett offer, like anything can out
468
00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:17.240
of court settlement, like hey, we'll give you this and
469
00:25:18.440 --> 00:25:21.400
let's move on. Do you know if like do are
470
00:25:21.400 --> 00:25:24.680
you privy to that information? Or is Beckett saying we'll
471
00:25:24.680 --> 00:25:26.920
see you in court. We're not giving you not and
472
00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:29.240
it's been twelve years, like this is ridiculous.
473
00:25:29.319 --> 00:25:30.880
Yeah, we haven't seen anything.
474
00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:35.160
Normally, settlement communications are kept secret between the parties, so
475
00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:38.000
if there was something out there, we haven't seen it yet.
476
00:25:38.119 --> 00:25:40.720
But I imagine here if I was, if I was
477
00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:42.599
a defense attorney in a case like this with a
478
00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:45.400
statute of limitations that was that long, I would say,
479
00:25:45.519 --> 00:25:48.000
let's fight the statute of limitations. Let's see what happens
480
00:25:48.039 --> 00:25:50.160
is you don't need to make a settlement offer. If
481
00:25:50.200 --> 00:25:54.039
somehow they survive that, well, then let's talk. But given
482
00:25:54.039 --> 00:25:58.480
that you know this case is a Honus Wagner settlement negotiations,
483
00:25:58.480 --> 00:26:00.839
I don't think de sides are in are going to
484
00:26:00.920 --> 00:26:04.279
meet anywhere near them because I don't about what the
485
00:26:04.440 --> 00:26:08.759
current sales h Honus Wagners are. But I guarantee either
486
00:26:08.839 --> 00:26:11.440
in the seven or eight million dollars range. And I
487
00:26:11.480 --> 00:26:13.519
don't think anybody for a lawsuit that they think is
488
00:26:13.559 --> 00:26:14.759
frivolous will pay any.
489
00:26:14.839 --> 00:26:17.960
Well, again, I'll reiterate, reiterate, how do you forget that
490
00:26:18.119 --> 00:26:20.640
card yourself? Right? Number one? Yeah?
491
00:26:20.759 --> 00:26:20.920
Right?
492
00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:23.880
But I want to ask this. Let's just hypothetically say,
493
00:26:24.279 --> 00:26:28.559
say the plaintiff wins the case against Beckett, what is
494
00:26:28.599 --> 00:26:32.359
he entitled to what the price of the card twelve
495
00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:35.160
years ago or the price of the card now, like,
496
00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:38.160
how does that? You know? Obviously, then there's court fees
497
00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:41.240
and and like you can, you can and damages above
498
00:26:41.640 --> 00:26:44.480
the price of the card. But just speaking to the
499
00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:47.920
card itself, if if the plaintiff was to win the case,
500
00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:51.119
what what where? What would he be you know, price
501
00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:53.799
twelve years ago or current market price.
502
00:26:53.799 --> 00:26:57.160
And that's what's We really don't have any cases out
503
00:26:57.200 --> 00:26:59.680
there that have gotten to that have gotten that far.
504
00:27:00.279 --> 00:27:03.279
We'll talk about one a little bit later that might
505
00:27:03.319 --> 00:27:05.880
get us there, but most cases settle, and as you
506
00:27:05.880 --> 00:27:08.920
can imagine, the plaintiffs are arguing whatever value is the highest.
507
00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:10.880
If it was higher back then, if it's higher now,
508
00:27:10.920 --> 00:27:12.960
that's what it'd be. And the defendants are obviously going
509
00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:15.359
to argue the other. So when you're like, if you're
510
00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:20.160
talking modern wax, you know Zion Williamson Williamson PSA ten
511
00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:22.160
way back in the day, it was worth a lot51200:27:22.240 --> 00:27:25.039
more then than it was now. So you know, you51300:27:25.079 --> 00:27:28.079
could see how each side will pick their pick what51400:27:28.480 --> 00:27:31.519
value that they want. But also it depends on your51500:27:31.519 --> 00:27:35.720
state law. Some states do not allow will not allow51600:27:36.000 --> 00:27:40.799
what's in a breach of contract action what's called consequential damage,51700:27:40.839 --> 00:27:44.079
which is an increase in value. So if you had51800:27:44.119 --> 00:27:47.960
a contract for ten bucks and ultimately the product ten51900:27:48.039 --> 00:27:50.160
years later is worth fifty bucks. If you're in one52000:27:50.160 --> 00:27:52.279
of those states that does not allow you for a52100:27:52.319 --> 00:27:55.759
contract action to see consequential damages, you're stuck with that52200:27:55.839 --> 00:28:00.359
initial ten buck. Now, So so that was the big ends.52300:28:00.599 --> 00:28:02.759
It depends on what state you're in, and it depends52400:28:02.799 --> 00:28:05.319
which side you're on. And you know, we don't have52500:28:05.359 --> 00:28:08.079
a judge has come in chimed in yet to say52600:28:08.119 --> 00:28:10.680
what controls, so we'll just have to wait and see.52700:28:10.960 --> 00:28:13.759
Yeah, thats definitely interesting to see how that turns out.52800:28:14.319 --> 00:28:18.000
One last question pertaining to that. If a judge feels52900:28:18.039 --> 00:28:22.039
like he's going to rule in the plaintiff's favor, how53000:28:22.039 --> 00:28:24.720
does he, like, does he determine the amount or does53100:28:24.759 --> 00:28:27.759
he go to beck and then say I'm about to53200:28:27.880 --> 00:28:30.839
rule against you. You may want to like try to settle.53300:28:30.880 --> 00:28:32.160
Is that is that how that works?53400:28:32.480 --> 00:28:35.480
Or no, it'll it'll most most times people select a53500:28:35.519 --> 00:28:39.720
jury for it, so the jury will decide which party53600:28:39.960 --> 00:28:43.000
wins the case, and then they'll decide if the plaintiff wins.53700:28:42.799 --> 00:28:45.960
Who's entitled to what value, So it won't be the judge.53800:28:46.000 --> 00:28:50.599
So the judge really just decides is there sufficient facts?53900:28:50.799 --> 00:28:54.200
Does the law exist to allow a jury to decide54000:28:54.440 --> 00:28:56.759
and if there is sufficient law, if the law is54100:28:56.759 --> 00:29:00.279
actually supporting the plaintiff, and if there are sufficient facts54200:29:00.319 --> 00:29:02.079
that are in dispute, then they'll.54300:29:01.880 --> 00:29:02.640
Give it to the jury.54400:29:02.680 --> 00:29:05.880
But it'll be the jury that'll decide who wins, who loses,54500:29:06.279 --> 00:29:09.240
and if the plaintive wins, how much money they okay.54600:29:09.319 --> 00:29:13.160
And that's I mean, obviously there's a potentially appeals processes54700:29:13.200 --> 00:29:15.880
and whatnot. So if that was if a jury did54800:29:15.920 --> 00:29:20.480
decide in favor of the gentleman who claims his wagner54900:29:20.599 --> 00:29:25.960
never got returned, it would probably be moove Becke to Obviously,55000:29:26.000 --> 00:29:28.359
they're either gonna appeal or they're gonna try maybe to55100:29:28.400 --> 00:29:31.880
be get out on the low end of things if possible.55200:29:32.000 --> 00:29:33.359
Yeah, if possible.55300:29:33.400 --> 00:29:35.200
But I think for a case like this, it's I55400:29:35.880 --> 00:29:37.720
don't remember what he's asking for, but I think he's55500:29:37.759 --> 00:29:40.319
asking for somewhere between twenty to twenty five millions, So55600:29:40.720 --> 00:29:42.400
I think I think when you get to that point,55700:29:42.759 --> 00:29:44.160
I don't think there's gonna be a middle.55800:29:43.960 --> 00:29:45.200
Ground for that one.55900:29:45.279 --> 00:29:49.039
Yeah. Yeah, that's crazy. And like Paul, I'm a bulk56000:29:49.079 --> 00:29:53.680
supper for SGC, right, I got I got fifty dollars56100:29:53.759 --> 00:29:55.920
cards that people are calling me every week like are56200:29:55.960 --> 00:29:59.160
they back yet? Are they back yet? You know, like56300:29:59.319 --> 00:30:03.279
this is a a icond of historic car to the hobby.56400:30:03.440 --> 00:30:06.359
Like I didn't forget that for twelve years, and like56500:30:06.440 --> 00:30:09.359
that's to me, that's I don't know, I just can't fathom.56600:30:09.559 --> 00:30:12.720
But I had a twenty dollars card that bounced all56700:30:12.759 --> 00:30:15.599
over the coast for a month before it showed up.56800:30:15.599 --> 00:30:17.319
And even that caused me a little apprehension.56900:30:18.119 --> 00:30:21.960
Yeah, yeah, it makes it's it's kind of goofy, it's57000:30:22.200 --> 00:30:25.960
you know, but we'll see how that How how long57100:30:26.000 --> 00:30:29.759
will something like that potentially could be in in litigation?57200:30:30.119 --> 00:30:32.599
Like how long could something like that drag out for.57300:30:33.240 --> 00:30:35.720
I would call this a simple case. There's not very57400:30:35.720 --> 00:30:37.440
many issues that are here.57500:30:37.839 --> 00:30:41.039
I could see this a case like this lasting year57600:30:41.079 --> 00:30:43.640
to fifteen months, depending on what depending on what happens.57700:30:43.960 --> 00:30:47.039
Cases do not move quickly in the court system, And57800:30:47.079 --> 00:30:49.359
that'll be just getting a jury trial. If there's gonna57900:30:49.359 --> 00:30:51.599
be an appeal process, we'll add another year year and58000:30:51.640 --> 00:30:52.559
a half on top of that.58100:30:52.960 --> 00:30:57.200
Yeah, all right, hope you enjoyed Part one of four58200:30:57.400 --> 00:31:01.519
with mister Paul LESCo. The hobby Law and the next58300:31:01.519 --> 00:31:05.400
three episodes we're gonna chop up some more hobby litigation.58400:31:05.599 --> 00:31:08.680
And again, uh, while you may not it may not58500:31:08.759 --> 00:31:12.240
directly affect you, it directly affects the hobby, right, and58600:31:12.319 --> 00:31:15.920
it's very important to note that.58700:31:16.200 --> 00:31:17.039
So uh.58800:31:17.079 --> 00:31:20.960
And it's just interesting to learn sort of how you58900:31:21.000 --> 00:31:25.000
know the law works and how these cases are decided59000:31:25.039 --> 00:31:28.480
and who might have the edge in them. So again,59100:31:28.880 --> 00:31:33.279
I always love having Paul on to to dissect these cases,59200:31:33.400 --> 00:31:36.480
make it easier to understand if you're not a lawyer59300:31:36.559 --> 00:31:40.240
like most of us. And hope you hope you enjoyed it.59400:31:40.279 --> 00:31:45.079
Three more the next three fridays. All right, now we're59500:31:45.079 --> 00:31:47.000
gonna hear from our Hobby is the People an now59600:31:47.119 --> 00:31:49.720
through the week and wrap up this week's.59700:31:49.440 --> 00:31:58.160
Show time for all the people announcer of the week. Hey,59800:31:58.160 --> 00:31:58.920
what's up your boy?59900:31:59.000 --> 00:32:02.319
Kato at mister ktob on Twitter, And remember the Hobby60000:32:02.759 --> 00:32:03.359
is the People.60100:32:03.920 --> 00:32:06.119
If you'd like to be the Hobby is the People60200:32:06.160 --> 00:32:09.359
announcer of the week, do a one or MP three60300:32:09.400 --> 00:32:15.599
file and send it to Sportscardination PC at gmail dot com.
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