Kevin Barrows(Former FBI Agent) Returns! E412

0:00 Sports Card Nation, the hobby is the people. Weekly news and interviews, it's your number one source. Sports Card Nation, the hobby is the people. Sports Card Nation. Former FBI man, Kevin Barrows and loved, you know, some of the insights we got on part one last week. And this is again, part two. And again, I, you know, the way we do our interviews here, you could potentially listen to part two first and then go back and listen to part one. That's, that's the way I kind of drew it up and designed it to be, especially once I knew I was going to double episodes. So, If you missed the first episode or first part of this conversation, not a big deal. You can go back and listen to last week's episode. And again, this is part two. I want to thank our great sponsors, SGC, Iron Sports Cards, Sports Collectors Digest, Hobby Hotline, Upper Deck, Card Ladder, and the Certified Trading Card Association. So with that all out of the way, let's start the episode.

1:29 Attention sports card nation viewers what up kids it's your boy scott. Hansen from nfl red zone oh we're. Back ball is back the hobby never ends and before you know it i'm gonna be on your screen again rocking that octobox knocking the bottom out of the witching hour and announcing seven hours of red zone football but as you watch red zone just save some time Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, to check out John and SportsCard Nation. Let's have a great season, people. Wanted to jump in here real quick before concluding part two here. We are going to be right into the conversation. We're talking about the unfortunate Brett Lemieux scandal, forgery ring, and him committing suicide.

2:48 He left a manifesto note behind. We're talking about how much does the FBI or law enforcement take into account a letter from someone who takes the easy way out rather than facing the music of prosecution. So that's what we're talking about as this continues. How much, when someone leaves a note like that, I mean, I'm sure it's not common where someone, but it's not the first criminal to take that way out. Obviously, like you said, it's going to be an investigation. They're not just taking everything verbatim when a criminal writes his manifesto, confession, whatever you want to label it. How much stock is put in that letter, or is it almost like none, and we're not going to believe this guy? We'll read it, we'll take it into account, but we have to do our investigation not based on the letter, but just based on the case.

3:55 Well, I think with a letter like that, which is so detailed, John, I think that they, what I would do, and if it were my investigation, I'm certain they probably took a similar path, is you have to corroborate every one of his statements. Everything that you can corroborate, you go through it with a fine-tooth comb. As I'm going through these things, and let's say he makes a claim about working with someone, and I go talk to that person, he said, I don't know what he's talking about, never worked with him. Now it's losing credibility, that manifesto, right? The So I think it's a double track. You're doing your own independent investigation based upon the facts that you're gathering, and you're going through that manifesto, and you're determining whether or not it's true. Each fact is true. It's the best you can.

4:38 Yeah, you're comparing notes, like you just said. I think you're doing your own investigation, and you're seeing how much the note that he wrote actually matches up to what you're, like you said- what you're finding. And I'm sure in some cases, some of it might be accurate, but not all of it is always accurate. So, you know, working inside the Bureau, you know, how do, again, you can't speak for every agent, but as a general statement, like what's the Bureau's sort of feelings towards the hobby and what goes on? Is it like, do they view it as important as, you know, like bank fraud or, you know, insider trading on Wall Street or, you know, and I'll even compare it to another, you know, the art world with Fugazi paintings and art pieces. You know, how do they view the hobby when compared to some of these other fraud elements?

5:42 I think it's evolved. I mean, when I was in, it wasn't, right? It wasn't an enormous concern of the Bureau. But I know now and we know now, particularly since 2020 and the pandemic, how the hobby is just absolutely blown up. That it's become these are. And I even said it during sports detectives. These are artifacts now. You know, these aren't just a kid at a ballpark getting his favorite ballplayer signature. These are going these these items are going for enormous, some of them enormous amounts of money, as you know. So I think the bureau, I'm sure the bureau looks at it is, you know, another really big potential fraud area. And I think they know that they need to continue to crack down on this. So my guess is at this point, I'm not going to tell you it's the highest concern for the Bureau, but certainly I think it's a much higher concern than it's ever been.

6:30 Yeah, no doubt. And then when you factor in, like you just said, Gavin, some of the amounts of these items, right? It doesn't matter even, it almost doesn't even matter what the item is. It's just the fact that these things can be in the millions of dollars. You know, and there's a sad element besides the fact that, you know, people are getting taken advantage of or losing their hard earned money. You know, we've seen recently a ring, a group of like four or five people who stole Yogi Berra's awards from his playing career. Not only did they steal them, you know, a lot of cases, things are stolen, right? And you hope, you hope that eventually they get apprehended and the items are apprehended as well and returned to their rightful owner or museums. In this case, you know, which is pretty recent in the last few years, right?

7:25 This group stole Yogi's, you know, awards and melted them down for the metal content. And it's really doubly sad, right? The museum, it's stolen from the Yogi Berra Museum. And, you know, as you, I don't have to tell you or probably anyone else listening, once you melt it down, it's gone. It's been destroyed. Can you make a replica piece? Sure. But it's not, obviously, it's not the original piece. How common is that with, when I read that, I'm like, that's got to be sort of the abnormally to what normally, you know, would happen. Is that more prevalent than I realized or not really?

8:08 I don't think so. I think that sometimes people don't know what they have and what it's worth, right? And they see a hunk of gold, they melt it down and whatever the price of gold is today, they get paid. But we know that the value would have been considerably more had they kind of known what they had. So my guess is it's not necessarily something that you run into often. And I think that these things have become so valuable now that there's so few people who who no longer really appreciate the value of sports memorabilia. Yeah. And it's sad. You know, when I, when I heard about that story, I was sad because you knew like, that's a piece of, of baseball history, not just yoga history. Right.

8:50 We're talking about an AL MVP award. And can you make, can you make a replica based on the original? You can, but as we all know, it's, it's not, it's not the same and it never will be. And so it'll, I get more, I get mad in any kind of crime, but even that, like, like you stole it, sell it. Like I'm not, again, I'm not Tony Kramer. Sell it. So at some point that piece can be recovered and brought back to where, you know, the museum where it should be. Like, I almost view that as like, almost like a double crime. I agree. I agree. You're destroying history. That's what you're doing. And that's, that's a shame. You can never recreate.

9:32 Yep. You know, going back to your work with the athletes, Kevin, like how much of that are they? Are they cognizant of that or they just have too much, too many other irons in their fire, so to speak, where you're sort of maybe enlightening them on that or it's not really on their radar? You know, I'd say for the most part, it's not necessarily on their radar. They're so focused on training and excelling at the highest levels, but certainly they're aware of the value of memorabilia and what they have and what, you know, and what they sign. And every athlete appreciates and understands that now, right? The value of their signature or game worn jersey or game used ball or whatever the case may be. So I think they're certainly all cognizant of it. They don't necessarily need to be told those things. But I don't think it's always on the forefront of most players' minds. You know, they're just so leisure focused on succeeding. That's something that, you know, they know exists out there, but they're not focused.

10:30 Yeah, that's what I figured you'd say, but I have to ask it. I want to assume your answer. We've seen, you know, speaking of athletes, Kevin, and I'm not breaking news to you here. We've seen cases where people have found out where an athlete lives, have broken into the house. You know, in some cases when the athlete was home, in other cases when they weren't, and stolen stuff. You know, how hard is it? You know, there's books for like autograph collectors to send letters to the mail to get these athletes to sign cards or an item and then send it back to them. You know, how wary are they of where their resonance is? And obviously in many...

11:14 In most of these cases, these athletes have families that live with them, too. It's not like they're all single people just by themselves. How wary of that are they? And what's your role in helping to avoid a horror story or a bad outcome? Well, unfortunately, these rings have become more prevalent. They're organized. They're very good at what they do. And this has unfortunately happened and a lot of athletes have been victimized. I don't play a big role in that. The league does a great job in their training sessions of informing the players of these pitfalls and the things to be leery of and to be cautious of. And I'm sure that it's at the forefront of their minds because, as you know, their families are extraordinarily important to them as ours are to us. So I think they're cognizant of it.

12:05 They're aware of it. But and I think I give credit to the leagues for training them. Yeah. And, you know, whenever a story like that breaks, you know, I don't care if it's you're a regular person or an athlete. Right. Someone's privacy. And, you know, that's a crime. I don't care who who's the victim. It's a crime. And it's it's not good either way. You know, go and take it back to the hobby. Even on legitimate stuff, we're seeing these six, seven-figure transactions daily now. I mean, it's almost where it's got to be eight figures now to really make headlines. But there's a lot of money exchanging hands legitimately, at least up front. Now, whether someone pays their taxes on income made from cards, whether it be sales tax or federal taxes, tax, like how much of that is, you know, being looked at? I mean, I think it should, if it's a crime, it's a crime, but like, you know, is that in the same vein as maybe someone's outright stealing an item and taking it, or is it looked at sort of differently?

13:19 Yeah. I mean, my suspicion is it's looked at differently. I don't think it's looked at in the same, with the same lens as somebody who's stealing this stuff or, or intentionally counterfeiting it and selling it to innocent people. But certainly, you know, look, again, I'm sure it's on the government's radar, so it's something to certainly be leery of. But, you know, I don't think it rises to the level of some of the scams that we've seen. Yeah, I was wondering that. That's kind of how I thought, but I figured I'd throw that out there, you know, have you weigh in on that. Time to hear from one of our great sponsors, but SportsGuard Nation will be right back after that. If you care about the future of the hobby, it's time to know the name CTCA, the Certified Trading Card Association. CTCA is the first and only nonprofit trade association dedicated to making the trading card hobby safer, smarter, and stronger for everyone.

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14:58 CTCA. Building a safer, smarter, and stronger hobby. Let's go! You are listening to the Sports Card Nation podcast. You know, we talked quite a bit about the Lemieux case. One of the biggest to rock. the industry and the hobby, as Steve Brad said, in his mind, it's the worst one. Do you think that's the, I hope you say yes, but I'm going to ask you, like, is that the pinnacle? I'm not, listen, that's not going to be the last forgery ring. There's stuff going on as we speak right now, I guess. But is that like the pinnacle of it as you see it? Or again, it's, it's opinion, it's speculation, but do you think that's, that's going to be the biggest one? You know, it's always the biggest one till the next one, right? Yeah, look, if.

15:47 It's $ 350 million, as he said it is, I can't, you know, that's an enormous, you know, fraud. But you can't say because, like you said, there's technology out there. The technology is great, but it's a double-edged sword. And typically, the criminals are ahead of the curve. They just simply are because they're dedicated to it. So I can't sit here and tell you that there will never be a fraud that is bigger than Lemieux. I wish I could. But, you know, I sense that at least one good thing, if there is anything good that's coming out of this, I hope people are trying to protect themselves a little more. Like doing the things you need to do or you can do as a consumer, you know, and those things include, one, due diligence on the seller. Like, what does that mean? Well, that simply means go online, search in chats on bulletin boards.

16:40 in social media, in media? Are there people complaining about this person or this seller? Do you see bad reviews? There's public records out there. Has this person been charged with a crime? That's an important one, right? Those things can save you enormous headaches just in the beginning before you even get to the merchandise itself, right? The memorabilia itself. So I always say to people, do your due diligence before. If it's a high price item, if you're buying a $ 10, $ 5, $ 10 card, I don't expect people to go crazy, right? you're going to take your chances. You can do your best and hope for the best often. But if you're talking about high priced and high value items, it's insane not to do your due diligence. And then in the Lemieux case, people didn't even run that serial number, the hologram, to make sure it was consistent with the COA, to make sure it was consistent with the database. So that to me is the easiest thing you can do. And that would have saved many people headaches. That you have to do. You know, you have to make sure that everything adds up if you're going to purchase something like that.

17:43 Those two things right there will save you a lot of headaches. Yeah, well said. Again, put in the research, especially the higher the item is or items are. And a lot of that, like you said, can be done, you know, everything takes some time, but it can be done rather quickly online. And you'd be surprised what will come up when you do a search online, whether it be, like you mentioned, a previous charge, a bunch of kind of reviews kind of saying, alluding to the same thing, right? That's kind of, it's very telling, like maybe, you know, go in a different direction and that sort of thing. And how they make you pay for it, John. That's another important factor. Well, you have to send me Venmo or Bitcoin, or if you're seeing those kinds of things, I'd walk away. I want to use a credit card where I have some protection if I'm defrauded, right? If I'm scammed. But most of the time, these kind of shaky sites, they want you to pay in these methods that that money's gone and there's no way to get it back. So that's another kind of, sometimes that's a telltale sign. Another thing is you see people who say, well, I have 30 game worn jerseys. Well, that doesn't exist.

18:53 If you're selling in bulk game worn, that's such a rare item. It's hard to walk away. I don't mean to laugh, but I hear what you're saying. You know what I mean? I mean, it's an exaggeration, but you'll see that online sometimes. These things, if it doesn't feel right, A lot of people don't use their gut and instinct. Walk away. They'd rather just say, well, give me an excuse to buy it. I always say, take a breath, listen to your gut. If it doesn't feel right, pass. Yeah, but it's the old adage, right? I know it's cliche, but it's cliche because it's ring true for decades, right? If it's too good to be true, it most likely is. It probably is. Almost every time. And so I always tell people, if it's too good to be true, You definitely have to do the research.

19:36 That's right. Bare minimum. You know, some some people tell you it's too big, too good to be true. Don't even do it. Don't even worry about the research. uh you know go or steer clear of that but in the very least uh before you plunk down uh your hard-earned income uh do do the research and and just you know uh err on the side of caution in every in every phase and facet yeah You know, another point, too, is like you say, well, it's not an extremely high dollar amount. That's not a discluder, right? Some of these people who are doing these illegal things, they'll pick some lesser.

20:17 I say lesser. There's still a decent amount of money, but not maybe four figures. Maybe there's, you know, even high two figures or three figures because it's easier. People are going to like, ah, it's not $ 1, 000 of them. I trust it. I'm not going to worry about it. Those are easier to slip through the cracks or slip through the five holes than a high dollar amount. And you know McDonald's made a lot of money, John, flipping hamburgers for a dollar. Yeah. And it's a volume business. If I can sell and scam a $ 50 knockoff item to 10,000 people, I've made a lot of money, right? So you're 100% right. I mean, I know people probably care less if it's a low dollar item, but you really have to do some diligence, especially nowadays, especially with all these sellers. And, you know, there's so many sellers out there making claims. I think that you're absolutely playing Russian roulette if you don't.

21:18 Yeah, even like even personally, you know, I've been a dealer from 1980, you know, doing my first show in 1987. In the 80s, we had what were called broder cards. They were just a guy. making cards in his basement. They went for a buck a piece and they sold like hockey, like people love and people, most people knew what they were. Right. It wasn't a big facade, but there were some people who just didn't know it. They thought they were genuine cards. And years later, they find out like, this is a card made by a gentleman in his basement. And there's really no eccentric value to it. It's just, Hey, it's a Don Manley. I love Don Manley. It's a picture of Don Manley. It looks like a real card to the blind eye. And because they're a buck apiece, no one is like, you know, people are like, oh, man, I can't believe I thought it was a real card.

22:14 But no one's like going after it. It's not a federal case. It's just chalked up to like, you got me. But it's easier at that level. because it's so low value. But like you just said, he sells 10,000 of those out of his basement at a buck a piece. It's still $ 10, 000, right? That's right. So it's the same difference. I don't want to put that on the same level as some of these others. But, you know, I figured I'd use that as sort of an example that I think it's easier with lesser priced stuff. Yeah. Because you're not expecting that. I agree. And the other thing, the other angle of the Lemieux case, if he did pump out the volume of merchandise he claims to him, you'd understand that this is like any other market. It's like the stock market.

23:04 When you infuse all this kind of merchandise into, and especially if it's fraudulent inventory, into the market, it's going to depress prices, even for legitimate sellers. Right. It's just a volume. You know, it's just a supply and demand. And that's another unfortunate side effect of this of this fraud and these frauds in general. Yeah. And it trickles down. Right. Like you said, it's going to it's going to make you suspicious of even people who are doing it the right way. It's sort of a black eye on them. And they didn't do anything wrong. It's just sort of lumped in with that kind of group. There's just sort of a distrust even of people who are reputable people. because of the actions of a few. And here's the other thing, right? Lemieux sells it to somebody, a bunch of different people. It's, you know, in some cases that's where it ends, but some of those people unknowingly, they're assuming it's a real McCoy item. They might turn around and flip it and sell it to someone else. So it doesn't just stop with Lemieux. That just keeps it. It has tentacles to it.

24:10 It can keep going. And again, you gave great advice as to some of the things you can do to sort of do your homework before making a purchase, maybe to not get, you know, the bad end of a deal. And, you know, in many cases, these things have to go through court litigation before you can even get reimburse. So maybe you will get your money back, but it's not instantaneous. It's gotta, it's gotta go. And in some cases you probably still don't, maybe the person gets a sentence or that doesn't always guarantee you, you get, you know, your, your, your money back. So you could still lose and the person get caught. It's not, they're, they're not mutually, they are mutually exclusive. One doesn't go along with the other. So, um, You know, I guess that I appreciate your time, Kevin.

25:06 Thank you. Some great insight and things to think about. Right. Especially when making any I say any purchase, but especially the larger the purse, the purchase, you know, do your do your homework. It's it's not as long, you know, we say homework. And we take back to our school days like I don't want homework. But it could be a matter of 10 minutes. But if 10 minutes saves you, you know, 500,000 or even more money. Right. You'll be glad you spent the time to. That's for sure. John, thank you. It's been my pleasure. It's been great speaking with you. Perhaps our paths will cross in the future. Yeah. I would love to have you come back on.

25:47 You know, I hope they're never another case. I think we both unfortunately know, uh, that's not going to be, we can hope, but we know, uh, that's not going to be case and we can kind of revisit even where the hobby is and what you do even with athletes. So I don't know if you want to give, if you want to give out any information, uh, with someone, you know, any social media or websites, whatever you want to share. Thanks very much. Yeah. I mean, if, uh, I have a podcast, Follow the Lies, Fraud and Deceit Uncovered, where I go into sports frauds and I go into a lot of big white collar cases, do deep dives, give people lie detector tips, how to protect themselves and things like that. So I'd appreciate anybody who's interested and check me out on YouTube and all the regular places, Spotify and Apple and so forth. And my website, you can always visit. It's followtheliespodcast.com. And there's a guide up there that can sort of give people tips, seven ways to help protect yourself and interviewing techniques and things like that. And lastly, if anybody's interested, I have a sub stack. It's followthelies.substack.com where I give all these lie detector tips and articles about how to protect yourself from fraud and so forth. But again, I greatly appreciate you having me on. It was terrific to speak with you.

27:09 Likewise, Kevin. Some great, as Kevin just said, some great resources right there to be more informed, get informed. And I don't care. You know, I've been in the hobby, Kevin, you know, over 40 years now. I learn something every day, right? There's always new information. Much like you said, I'll just put it in plain terms, right? The bad guys are doing their homework, too. We need to do. The good guys got to do their homework as well. That's right. Some great, great resources by you. And thank you for being one of the good guys as we like to say. Appreciate it, John. Thank you.

27:49 All right. Thanks, Kevin. Take care. Time for our hobby is the people. Announcer of the week. What up, everybody? It's your boy, Cousin Oz, the People's Mailman. And along with Cousin Tony, the architect, we are Cousins Collectibles. Make sure to check us out on the Cousins Collectibles podcast. as well as on Instagram at Cousins underscore collectible. Before we get out of here, we wanted to remind you of a couple things. First and foremost, remember, the hobby is the people. And as always, keep focused, keep positive, and keep collecting. Like to be the Hobby is the People announcer of the week? Do a WAV or MP3 file and send it to sportscardnationpc at gmail.com.