Jan. 9, 2026
Spiegel .vs Goldin. PSA 9's to 10's Paul Lesko explains E370
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WEBVTT
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Sports Guard Nations.
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Hobby is the people weekly news and interviews.
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It's your number one song.
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Spores Guarnation Hobby is the people.
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Sports Guy Nation.
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What is up? Everybody? Welcome to episode three seventy of
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Sports Cardination, Part four. I don't like calling them parts
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because you don't have to listen to him in order.
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But the fourth installment of our Hobby legal series with
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Attorney Paul LESCo and friend and a Great Guy breaks
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it down for us in simple terms. This is the
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fourth installment of the previous three were the previous three weeks,
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so this will wrap it up for now with Paul
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and a couple of cases. On today's episode, we're gonna
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talk about the Spiegel versus Golden case, which involves a
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lebron RPA and dispute over the patch, whether it's real
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or not, and the value that was affected by it.
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And we've mostly have probably heard about the PSA nines
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magically turning into PSA ten, so we're going to touch
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on that. It's not in the court case at least
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not at this point, but we're going to kind of
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talk about maybe some of the legal ramifications of that,
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the optics of it and all that good stuff so
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always fun, you know, and these cases are current, right
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and relative, so very important. I want to thank my sponsors,
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Iron Sports Cards, SCD Sports Collectors, Digest, High Heatline, and
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Upper Deck. So without further ado, let's start the show.
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All right, here is the last installment of our Hobby
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Legal series with attorney Paul LESCo, and we're gonna start
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off talking about something that actually isn't in court yet.
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I say, yeah, but we'll see how this plays out.
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But we probably most of you have probably heard about
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the PSA controversy of them buying back cards and they
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miraculously go from nine to ten. So we're talking about that,
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maybe potentially seeing litigation or how the optics of it.
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You know, we're not done with with PSA just yet, Paul.
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We're not letting them go like this one's really well listen,
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you know, maybe they're picking out of themselves.
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Yeah, I mean that's really the problem. You become the
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big guy out there, you're gonna.
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Make some people.
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Yeah.
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So the this is really fresh and ongoing, right, We've
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got now you even alerted me to the fact that
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another person has alleged to this right that they had
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their cards graded they got some nines, they sold them
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to PSA, and those nines with the same certain number,
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and again, correct me if any of this is inaccurate,
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the same certain number miraculously became up got upgraded the
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tens now that PSA is in possession of them and
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reselling them. If this is true, I'm not I have
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friends that work at PSA. I've used them. I used
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them sometimes even now. If this is true, you know,
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there's always that thing, right, I'm sure you've heard it, like,
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how would it PSA ever get knocked off? Like the
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number one line in the grading. I think it's a
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story potentially like this. I'm not saying it is. I'm
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not making that prediction, but it's something like this where
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all integrity potentially is lost and they're looked at as
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a true evil umpire. If this, if these allegations in
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fact turn to be correct and accurate, this, what do
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you There's no really reasonable explanation. You've already It's not
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like they sent that to another grading company and got there.
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They just changed it in house. It's like, you know,
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I mean, I know, I just threw a lot at
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you at one time, but but go ahead, you know,
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way in.
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Here and and I'll start I am very cynical when
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it comes to subjective grading.
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I can't tell a nine from it. I cannot. So
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whenever I have the.
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Option, if there's a card out there, if the ten
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is out of reach and the nine is less than
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a raw card, I'm buying a nine. It's pretty me
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And given the fact that it's no secret, if you
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get a bunch of ninees back, you know a lot
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of people will crack them and just reset them back
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in and they'll get some ten. I think subjective grading
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is you know, I think it's something that everybody accepts,
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and I don't think we should. But I think the
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reason it happens is because people aren't smitty cards to
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be graded because they want a third party to say
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your card is pretty. They want the ten so they
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can sell the card and make more money. So if
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you're doing business with somebody who gives tens and they're
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the most expensive.
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Ten, I e would go, Paul, I would go a
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step further. You hit the nail right in the head.
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But even people who aren't selling it right at the moment,
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they still want the ten. Whether it's an ego thing
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or the fact that maybe they're gonna sell it, not
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this year, not next year, but five years from now
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we're ten year. You still want that ten right for
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more than just financial reason. But financial reasons lead obviously
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lead lead the way, but go ahead. I just had
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to exactly to just try. I'm in there a little bit, but.
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No, no, So I mean, thank you, I mean, but
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it really is. It's just like that the PSA ten
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is what everybody wants. It is that's the high dollar
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mark for everything. So until people's believe that there's another
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company who's ten is better, everyone's gonna still keep going
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back to PSA and here. So I used to be
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a defense attorney. I started off my career from my
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first five years, I worked for a large defense so
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I actually represented the large companies and you would see,
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you know, not in this area, but you would see
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cases kind of like this, and invariably the way that
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I always always looked at it is sometimes stupidity looks
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like evil intent from the outside. And that's like when
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it comes to like fraud cases. That's one of the
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biggest defenses to fraud cases is we're not evil, we're stupid.
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And that's kind of like you know potentially. You know,
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I always try to look at things from both sides,
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and when I look at it here, it's like, well,
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if you if I'm getting it right? What PSA says
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that they did as these cards went for a second
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internal review, and in that second internal review somebody graded
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I guess three of them or three out of the
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ten they were nines and became tens. Well, I think
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we all know nines and ten's are pretty interchangeable, and
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depending on if the greater head you know, had an
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extra cup of coffee and feels good, he's going to
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give more tens than nine because they all look the same. So,
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you know, I don't really see this as like a
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critique on PSA.
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Doing anything bad or doing anything evil.
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I see it as a critique on people got to
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get over this big gap between nines and tens.
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I think nines and tens.
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Should be a lot closer in value than they are,
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and not like this because they are interchangeable, and so
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I think this is just one of those insid that
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shows nine and tens should be closer. They shouldn't be
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this far. For me, I don't think it's really evilness.
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I just see because when you're gambling with stuff that's
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so close looking at a nine, looking at ten. And
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that's why I joked about it like three months ago.
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I think at the National we need to have a
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game shift where each grading company puts three of their
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graders up and they all grade the same card, and
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we'll see when it comes up, and then we'll send
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the second you send the card through again and see
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if they, you know, see if those same graders can't
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get the same grades. I guarantee it's all going to
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be a complete out there for that. So I think
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it's I think it's more of a commentary, not necessarily
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on PSA doing anything, you know, evil or shenanigans. It's
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just that nines and tens should not be so far
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apart from each when it comes to them, because they're
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not very.
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Differct no, and we I know, we talked a little
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bit before hitting record, like, I agree, I agree with
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that you and listen, I've graded cards for thirty years now,
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I've had them next to each other most times, I
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won't say, you know, across the board. Most times the
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difference is very indiscernible between a nine and ten, So
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you're right, and when it comes to I've bought plenty
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of nines and very happy with the amount less I
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had to pay in relation to paying four ten. But
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if that's the case, let's you know, and again this
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is just an opinion here, or not so much a
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quarter of pedce. But if they're purchasing a card they
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were already graded and then reholdering it and with the
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same certain number, just isn't that sort of like it
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just it just feels sort of sleazy.
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Yeah, it does. It looks bad.
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I mean it does. It has the appearance of impropriety.
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But again you could see how the mistakes if there
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is this second layer of review, this unfortunate second layer
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of review, where something can change in between the submitter
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of the card to saying, oh easier what I got? Okay,
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I don't want to deal with them, you know, you
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can buy them back from us or what are the
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proper terminology? And then it turns out that they should
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have been if you wanted to sell them back, they
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should have been sold back for more.
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That looks bad. That looks bad.
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Yeah, the optics are really bad. Well, like, I just like,
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I'm not condoning illegal actions and whatnot. I'm just speaking
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and like like like why are you using the same
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shirt number? Like at that, like you're just yeah, this
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is why we're at where again, I'm not trying to
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say you do that in the first place, but if
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you're doing that, you're using the cert the same CIRT
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cert number. Now what goes from like you're you're just
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like you stepped in it yourself.
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And yeah, I'm unclear as to why there is a
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secondary review. I mean it just seems like, Okay, you've
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had the review for the car that's isn't it.
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Aren't you done? Aren't you done? At that point? I
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mean I could see if somebody's you know.
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In a way, you're throwing yourself under the bus, like
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our graders didn't grade that well, so we're doing it again.
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You're you're saying, what the standards the standard? You prop
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yourself up on your like undercutting yourself if if that's
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the case, so like it'll be interesting. Now are these
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going to court? These are Are these just people screaming
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from the mountaintop?
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Yeah?
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These are these are people just screaming from the mountaintops.
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Because I believe at least the first uh, you know,
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the first person I think he's been made whole or something.
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I think uh PSA has made him right somehow. I
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don't know if there's a confidentiality agreement or something there.
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It was.
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There's some funny tweets out there about it, so I
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think that one's been resolved. H So, you know, I
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don't know if there will be a court case. It's
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It's one of those things that will be difficult to
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show because I think he just got lucky with looking
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at certain numbers later seeing with certain numbers popped up
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with with higher grades. Not many people are gonna do that,
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you know, most people.
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You know, if.
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There's a lot of this, you know that you're the
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hobby lawyer. There's a lot of hobby detectives. Let me
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put this way, there's there's probably more habby detectives than
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heavy lawyers, without a doubt.
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So maybe the the hobby detectives have been We'll see
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what else out there.
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It's time for a quick break, bots, We'll be right back.
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Thanks for sticking with us. Let's return to the show.
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You know, I don't know how much time you want
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to spend on as we can do kind of the
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cliff notes version. I know you've been on a bit,
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you know, and this is not necessary. I don't believe
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I don't know as much about this as as the
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