Alyx Effron of Collectors MD E413

0:00 Sports Card Nation, the hobby is the people. Weekly news and interviews, it's your number one source. Sports Card Nation, the hobby is the people. Sports Card Nation. What is up everybody? Welcome to episode 413 of Sports Card Nation. I hope you enjoyed Monday's special episode. Episode 412A. I got the opportunity to talk to Philadelphia Eagles cornerback Cooper DeGene, number 38 in the top 100 NFL Network players. Incredible player in the secondary for the Eagles. I know it's not a great year for them thus far, but still a great young player.

0:57 Anytime you have an opportunity to to talk to someone like that, you definitely say yes. So that was presented to me, and I definitely said yes. And I'm really happy to have this week's guest on, and next week's, two parts, part one this week, Alex Efron, Collectors MD, doing great things in the hobby with, you know, just in general, but, you know, There are some parallels to gambling and the hobby, and Alex has a background in dealing with some of those afflictions, if you will. We definitely tackle that, and his company has formed the CMD Foundation.

1:46 It's a nonprofit to advance awareness, prevention, education, recovery, support. uh, not just for the person involved, uh, but for also their families impacted, uh, by some of those, uh, addictions and, uh, behaviors. So, uh, doing big things, that stuff goes past the hobby, right? Uh, unfortunately. Um, and so if you can help somebody, um, you're helping in a sense more than one person and that that's huge. And, um, You know, I know it's not an exact parallel, but even working in special education, you're just making an impact not only with the students in your class, but their families at home. And, you know, in many cases, you're seeing that kid, in my case, sometimes more than their own parents. And you can't put a price on those things, including, obviously, what Alex does.

2:51 So. We're going to tackle some hobby talk and things going in the hobby that sort of play into some of that stuff. So, again, part one is this week, and then part two will be the following Friday. As always, I want to thank our sponsors, SGC, Iron Sports Cards, Sports Collectors Digest, Hobby Hotline, Upper Deck, Card Ladder, and the Certified Trading Card Association. that myself and Alex are on the advisory board of. And speaking of that, Alex has invited me to serve in a similar role for CollectorsMD. And, you know, I'm happy to be part of any organization making a big difference in folks' lives and making things better, right?

3:43 And that's exactly what they're doing. So happy to have them on. And, again, part one now and part two next week. So enough jibber-jabbering from me. Let's get the show started. Attention, Sports Card Nation viewers. What up, kids? It's your boy Scott Hanson from NFL Red Zone. Oh, we're back. Ball is back. The hobby never ends. And before you know it, I'm going to be on your screen again, rocking that octobox, knocking the bottom out of the witching hour, and announcing seven hours of Red Zone football. But as you watch Red Zone, just save some time. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, to check out John. And Sports Card Nation.

4:32 Let's have a great season, people. All right. Real happy to talk to the next gentleman on the Sports Card Nation guest line. And we're going to talk about some stuff I think sometimes we don't talk about enough, and I think it's important, and we're going to delve into that. But without further ado, I want to welcome my guest, Alex Efron, Collectors MD. Welcome, sir.

5:15 Thanks for having me on, John. Looking forward to this conversation. Yeah, and, you know, I know people talk about, you know, when we talk about the hobby, and I've been doing this 40 years hobby-wise, and... You know, we think of people compared to gambling, and it's not exactly, obviously, as you know, not exactly the same thing, but there are parallels there. And, you know, people can go down pratfalls. I'm going to share a story today that I've shared on the podcast, so some faithful listeners already probably know what I'm talking about. But before we get into that, like, kind of, you know, You know, you started CollectorsMD, I think it's over a year now ago, year and a half.

5:59 You've been with Right Choice Recovery. So it's not just hobby, necessarily hobby addiction. You have backgrounds in other forms of addiction. Just rather than me tell people what you do, I'll have you do that. Yeah, I appreciate that, John. I've been a collector since. Most of my life and, you know, like a lot of people in this hobby, my relationship with collecting has definitely evolved over the years. I've experienced firsthand how, you know, something that brings so much enjoyment, excitement, community, you know, camaraderie can also become unhealthy when spending and chasing and compulsive behavior start taking over. And so that personal experience combined with my background in marketing and media and my work facilitating recovery groups at Right Choice, like you mentioned, ultimately led me to create CollectorsMD. And I always emphasize that we are not anti-hobby. We are not an anti-collecting organization.

7:02 It's really quite the opposite. I love this hobby. We love this hobby and we want to see it thrive. But we also recognize that the hobby and collecting in general has changed dramatically over the years, particularly, you know, the growth of things like live breaking and randomized products and online marketplaces and the ability to to really purchase something virtually 24 seven. Right. The immediate access around the clock. And what we're trying to do with CollectorsMD is really bridge a gap between the collectibles industry and the behavioral health community. So we provide peer support meetings, education, prevention resources, and initiatives like RIP responsibly, which encourages collectors to just be more intentional about how and why they participate. We also work with hobby shops, breakers, manufacturers, major platforms, behavioral health organizations, to bring a sense of responsible collecting into the broader conversation. And so through our nonprofit, the CMB Foundation, we're expanding our focus on prevention, awareness, and support for individuals and families who may be struggling. And one thing that's been really encouraging is just the response that we've received from across the industry. More businesses and more organizations are recognizing that promoting responsible collecting participation doesn't have to come at the expense of enjoying the hobby or growing

8:33 a business. So at the end of the day, we're, you know, we're not here to tell people how much to collect or what they should spend their money on. We're just here to help people recognize when collecting stops adding to their lives and starts taking something away from them. I'm sure you've heard it. I even touched on it here in my sort of opening segment, you know, the hobby sort of being used uh simultaneous there is an element uh to that um you know what's your take on that you see the parallels would you say the hobby is a form of gambling like what what exit do you get off when you hear someone else uh compared the two.

9:14 Yeah i mean i think there are absolutely parallels uh between modern collecting and gambling but i don't think it's fair or accurate to say they're, you know, one in the same, right? And that's a distinction that we're very intentional about at Collectors MD. Collecting has tremendous value. There's nostalgia, community, you know, the excitement of finding a card that maybe you were looking for for a long time. There's the enjoyment of building something meaningful over time. And most people participate within the hobby without experiencing significant harm. And we should acknowledge that. But when you look at certain modern purchasing formats, particularly live breaks and mystery products and repacks and even traditional pack openings, you start to see some familiar psychological mechanics, right? There's the sense of uncertainty, the anticipation, the valuable rewards, and, you know, sometimes the temptation to just keep spending in pursuit of one particular outcome. And those mechanics don't automatically change. make an activity gambling, but they can absolutely influence behavior in similar ways. And what I find particularly interesting is that someone might never place a sports bet or walk into a casino, but they could still experience some of the, you know, the patterns that those folks experience in traditional gambling environments through collecting, right?

10:40 The chasing losses, the spending beyond their means, the hiding the purchases, the feeling unable to stop. And that's really, I think, the distinction I want people to understand. We don't want to or need to classify every aspect of collecting as gambling to recognize when someone's relationship with it has become harmful. And I think that's where the conversation really needs to be focused, right? Not on putting labels on the hobby or criticizing how people choose to participate, but on really understanding the nuances, the mechanics of you know, recognizing the warning signs and just making sure people have the right resources to make informed decisions. So at the end of the day, the label matters less to me than the actual impact the behavior is having on somebody's life.

11:30 Yeah, well said. And again, there's so many different ways to hobby. When it comes to gambling, I mean, obviously there are different gambling games and then you got the sports aspect of gambling, but it's kind of the same, right? You're plugging down money and hoping to, whether that's, you know, gambling in the casino, hoping the cards turn out right, or if it's sports gambling, you know, hoping that who you bet on comes through, whether that be an individual player or a team where we're in hobby, there's just so many things you touch on it. We have breaks, you know, we have people buying wax on their own and, and opening it. And that's where I'm going to go with my personal story, Alex. And I've shared this before.

12:12 This is not, you know, breaking news. And, it's sort of old news now in, in, in my timeline of, of the hobby, but I'd say about 20 years ago, it's been, been a while. I got into this cycle where I was just opening a lot of wax. Like you said, the chasing, you know, big hits and the cards. Listen, no one will argue like opening a pack of cards is probably the, one of the most fun things and enjoyable things you can do a hobby wise, especially when you're doing it yourself. Right. Um, And so, you know, then I got a credit card bill in the mail and I opened it up and it was, you know, over ten thousand dollars. And it just just happened quick. And it's paid off. It's zeroed out. I actually don't have a knock on wood. I don't have a credit card balance at the moment. But like I didn't even realize I didn't realize I knew I was spending money. But, you know, I guess you don't realize how much. And it was sort of eye opening for me, Alex, like.

13:10 And then when you look at what you have with that $ 10, 000 spent on wax, you know, most of the time it's not going to let you hit something crazy. It's not usually you're going to be on the losing end of that stick. And in my case, that was, was the case. And then you're like, man, I can't do that. Right. I can't do that anymore. So obviously I paid that off and learned a personal lesson myself. Right. But, Sometimes it's not as easy as that. Sometimes we need some help from outside of our sphere. In my case, I didn't, thankfully. But that's not always how the story ends, as you can attest to firsthand. When you see hobby addictions, what do you see the most? If we're ranking what you see the most of, what do you think is number one on that list?

14:03 Yeah, John, first, I really appreciate you sharing that because I think your experience is something a lot of collectors can relate to, even if they don't always talk about it openly. And the fact that you recognize what was happening and made adjustments, it's really important. It might feel small, but it's really important. And one of the biggest patterns that we see is that people don't necessarily realize how much they're spending until they're already dealing with the consequences. right? It's really a conscious decision to spend $ 10, 000, right? It's 50 bucks here. It's 100 bucks there. It might be, you know, joining a few breaks, you know, a couple of times a week or going to your LCS and just grabbing a box. And before you know it, you know, the purchases have added up. And I think, you know, you touched on something really important. There's a difference between the value of the cards you end up with and the amount you've spent pursuing them, right? And for some people, Opening packs is entertainment and they're comfortable paying for that experience, regardless of what comes out of the box, right? There's nothing inherently wrong with that. But when you're spending money that you can't afford, you know, to lose because you're chasing a particular outcome, that's when we need to start asking different questions. And so what we see most at Collectors MD isn't necessarily someone who just loves collecting too much or is like overly obsessed. It's a loss of control over the behavior, right? You mentioned how you were

15:33 able to control it on your own. Some people need to step outside of their own personal sphere, as you called it, and get, you know, real help from whether it be through peer support or professional guidance, right? So people often describe, you know, setting budgets and repeatedly exceeding them or chasing losses or hiding packages or purchases from their spouses and accumulating debt, like you mentioned, or telling themselves like this is the last break or this is the last box only to find themselves participating again, you know, in an hour, a day or two. And there's often, you know, an emotional component, right? Maybe someone is stressed or lonely or they had a bad day and opening packs or participating in a break becomes a way to escape those feelings, a way to, you know, really regulate your emotions, right? And so the biggest warning sign isn't necessarily how much somebody is spending. It's really when they start feeling like they can't make a different choice, right?

16:34 And so to your point about outside help, that's exactly why we created a peer support community. Sometimes recognizing the problem is enough to make a change like you did. Other times, you know, having people who understand what you're experiencing without judgment or shame can make all the difference. Yeah, I think the last thing you said right there is important, right? When I got that bill and I'm like, holy crap, it's 10K. Like, I didn't even realize it snuck up on me. There is an element of embarrassment. I'm like, how did I get fooled or how did I not know this, right? And I think sometimes to get past that point, right, is even the biggest hurdle, right?

17:15 To admit like, hey, I need to talk about this. How do I stop this? How do I, you know, climb out of the hole and make sure I don't dig a new one? And that's not always, that's not always easy. I was, you know, I just did it, you know, and I don't know what the percent, I just did it myself. But again, that's not what, you know, what works for one may not work for someone else. So, you know, it can be tricky. And I've heard, you know, I've heard horror stories, right? People even going even beyond wax, but going to the national park. and just buying individual cards and putting them on multiple credit cards. Oh, I have five different credit cards. They're not crazy high individually, but when you add those all up, it's $ 50, 000, $ 60, 000, let's say. I'm just throwing out arbitrary numbers, right? Yeah.

18:07 Credit cards, I don't know if you agree, and this is not a hobby thing, but I think credit cards, and credit cards are obviously not a new thing, but it's sort of made... addiction may be easier to happen because you're not really spending the money up front, right? You're like, Hey, I got this. I still have the same amount of my wallet. Right here. I have this, but that bill's coming. It's just not instant. I mean, it's credit cards make addiction in your opinion, more like, like, is it a fat contributor to what we're seeing? Oh, absolutely. And you know, there was something you brought up there that I think, is really important. And that's the dollar amount. And I think the dollar amount, you know, we talk about this often in GA and just recovery environments in general, the dollar amount is relative, right? $ 10, 000 to one person might be a manageable financial setback like yourself, right?

19:04 But to someone else that could represent like their entire life savings or a year's worth of disposable income or, you know, money they needed to pay their mortgage and support their family. And on the flip side, someone could be spending hundreds of thousands of dollars and still be financially comfortable, right? That doesn't automatically mean they have a problem, just as spending a few hundred dollars doesn't mean someone, you know, is immune from experiencing harm. It's not necessarily about how much you're spending. It's really about what the spending represents in the context of your life. So, you know, asking yourself key questions like, are you spending money you can't afford to lose? Are you compromising your responsibilities or your relationships? Are you repeatedly crossing boundaries that you've set for yourself and perhaps the most importantly, do you feel like you're still in control? Because ultimately, financial harm isn't measured by the size of the transaction. It's really measured by the impact that the transaction has on the individual and the people around them. And that's why we approach these types of conversations without judgment.

20:08 Right. Everybody's circumstances are different. If somebody comes in and they lost a couple hundred bucks, but they feel like, you know, their world is crashing down on them. We don't, you know, stigmatize them and make them feel like, you know, uncomfortable because they're not in the same financial predicament as the next guy. Right. What might be harmless entertainment for one collector could have serious consequences on another. And to answer your question about the credit cards, like, absolutely, they can make it significantly harder. not because credit cards are inherently bad. They've been around for a long time. They've created debt and shopping issues for many people for many years. But within this type of environment, what they do is they create a separation between the act of spending money and actually feeling the financial consequences of that spending, right? So when you're paying with cash, there's something tangible about handing over that money But when your credit card is saved on a platform and you can participate in another break or purchase another box with a single click, that friction is almost entirely removed. And I think it's relevant in today's hobby because purchases can happen so quickly, right? You're not necessarily thinking about the cumulative total, like you said before, you're thinking about the next pack, the next break, or the next opportunity to hit the big card. So the credit limit can almost start to feel like an extension of your spending budget. When in reality it's borrowed money

21:42 that eventually has to be paid back and accrues interest if you don't pay it in full. And so once someone starts carrying a balance and the interest charges can, you know, compound the financial consequences, like that's when things might start to get out of hand. So again, for some people that creates additional pressure to chase a big hit for others. they might be able to pay it off and it's not that big of a deal. But I also think it's important to really distinguish between using your credit card responsibly and losing control over spending. There are plenty of collectors that use credit cards and they pay them off every month and they stay within their means. So the issue isn't necessarily the payment method. It's when the ease of spending starts to outpace our ability to recognize, evaluate, and control what we're spending. And John, your story is a perfect example of why awareness matters, right? Sometimes just seeing that statement in the mail is like the first time an individual really understands how quickly those seemingly small purchases have accumulated. We've heard horror stories where people don't check their statement or they thought it was on auto pay only to realize a year later that they're tens of thousands of dollars in the hole and people scratch their head. They're like, how is that even possible? But again, there's like a psychological component here. When you're in these environments that are just so frictionless and make it so easy and accessible, you lose sight of reality, right? And

23:12 we often say in traditional gambling environments, the money starts to feel like monopoly money. You don't even realize how much money you're spending, right? People say all the time, I would bet five grand on a game like it was nothing. But when I have to pay five grand towards something you know, significant or meaningful, whether that be a mortgage payment or insurance or, you know, a medical bill, whatever it is, it becomes like, oh, I can't believe I have to spend $ 5, 000. Well, you just threw it, you know, at a hobby box of wax or you just threw it on a parlay. So like, so again, it's a psychological component that really changes the way people think and perceive the situation or the experience.

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24:42 Yeah, another great point you made too, right? Everyone has a different discretionary income level. So like you said, Me or you might think, ah, a couple hundred bucks, it's still money, but, like, we can manage that. For someone else, right, it's a great point you made. That can be sort of life-shattering, as crazy as that might sound to some, but to some others on different levels, that could be the difference, you know, putting a meal on the table for themselves or their families or paying their mortgage or whatever bill. Or paying your kid's tuition, you know? Yeah. So like just be, you know, so someone said, ah, man, it's only a 500 bucks or it's only a thousand bucks.

25:25 It might be only to them, but to someone else, that's more than only. That's like you said, it could be their entire bank account in the moment. Doesn't mean they're always be in that level, but that's where they are at that moment. So I think sometimes some of us, not me, because I know, but some of us maybe take for granted that, You know, everyone has different levels. I might be higher than one person, and then there's a lot of people higher than me. Right. It's all relative. Yeah, exactly. And so you got to keep that in mind. Do you think the hobby, whatever facet of the hobby, just in a general statement, do you think the hobby itself is realizing some things, and are they doing enough to sort of, you know, you watch like a DraftKings commercial on TV, and then at the end they're like, have a number where, like, if you're having an issue, I'll call this hotline or whatever. Do you think the hobby is realizing some of these, I don't know if you want to call them flaws, but issues? And are they, on what side are they? Are they on the right side of trying to do things responsibly? Or does there definitely have room for, well, there's always room for improvement. But, you know, are they doing enough, I guess, is my question.

26:45 Yeah, John, I genuinely think the hobby is starting to recognize that these conversations deserve recognition and we need to be having. And that's been one of the most encouraging things about the work we're doing at CollectorsMD. We've had conversations with everyone from local card shops and breakers to manufacturers, marketplaces, and some of the largest platforms in the industry. And what I found is that a lot of people genuinely want to do the right thing. They just haven't necessarily had the language or the resources or the framework to approach these issues. Now, are we doing enough? I think we're making progress, but there's certainly a long way to go. And I think, you know, I don't think that's necessarily an indictment of the hobby. This industry has evolved incredibly quickly and in many ways. You know, I think the conversation around consumer well-being and responsible participation are just still starting to catch up.

27:41 Right. And that's exactly why we created hashtag RIP responsibly. And so what RIP responsibly is, it's a community driven initiative that's designed to normalize responsible collecting without stigmatizing the people who participate. Just like, you know, gamble or game responsibly, don't drink and drive. Right. Plenty of people participate in a healthy way, but it's just a disclaimer. It's a reminder that, hey, there are some potential dangers, potential risks associated with this activity. So we're not telling collectors that they shouldn't open packs or join breaks or enjoy the excitement of the hobby. We're encouraging people to be mindful of their spending and understand the mechanics of what they're participating in and recognizing when something stops being enjoyable and know that support exists if or when they need it.

28:29 And so we're asking businesses to be a part of that conversation too. Sometimes that's as simple as displaying RIP responsibly as part of their live environment, their ecosystem. It could be sharing educational resources. It could be incorporating a responsible collecting reminder into a live stream. Other times it's working with platforms on more meaningful education, safeguards, support pathways. Some manufacturers are starting to put RIP responsibly directly on their consumer packaging, which is really encouraging. And one thing I always emphasize is that responsible collecting and a successful collectibles business are not mutually exclusive, right? In fact, I would argue that helping people develop healthier, more sustainable relationships with collecting is ultimately good for the long-term health of the industry. And we also have to recognize that, you know, different collectors need different things. For some, it's, you know, simply establishing a budget or just being more intentional for others, particularly those who've experienced significant harm or, lost control, stepping away entirely may be the healthiest option. So we're not trying to change what people love about the hobby. We're just trying to help preserve those things while addressing the areas where people could potentially get hurt. And I think the fact that we're even having this conversation on a show like yours is a great example of the progress we're making.

29:55 Yeah. Well, I think number one, this is not lip service. I think it's important. And I like sharing my own story, even though it's, it's not new anymore. Like it happened, right. To say otherwise would be disingenuous. So, and I'm a pretty disciplined person, regimented. So I'll say this, and I don't mean this in a, in a, a cocky sort of way, but like, if that could happen to me, like, I think it could happen potentially to, to other people, you know, a lot of people too. Yeah. It, It happened quick and all of a sudden. And, you know, the light bulb went out for me. Like, okay, that's it. Like, you know. It can happen to the most unassuming individuals, John. People who have never gambled a day in their life, you know, they suddenly get wrapped up. And it's not just, you know, the hobby. It's any of these adjacent industries and activities, right?

30:47 You have day trading, prediction markets, gaming. Yep. You know, gotcha games, loot boxes, you have blind boxes, right? Toys. And it's really, really the children, the youth that we have to protect. And it's not just a matter of like forcing education down their throats. It's a matter of educating the parents, letting them know that, Hey, the environment that your kids are engaging in today is not the same environment that we engaged with when we were children. Yeah. Well said right there, because that like, as someone who's been in the hobby 40 years, What the hobby is today is way different. It's not even the same hobby as you well know. The landscape's different. The methods are different.

31:31 Social media exists where at one time I was in the hobby before there was a social media. So I was in the hobby. This will tell you how old I am, Alex. When eBay, like now you got PayPal and Venmo. I was with eBay when you would have to literally mail a check or money order to if you bought something to the seller, they would get it and they would have to, if it was a check, you would get your stuff later because they would wait to your check to clear before shipping your product. Now it's all instantaneous, right? Literally, you've committed for the money to come out of your account if the seller agrees to your offer or if you buy it now and they're hopefully shipping it the next day or in the next few days. Right.

32:20 Yeah. But I remember the hobby when a transaction was a two to three week thing. Now it's one week from like when you bought it to when it's on your doorstep. So like it's, I mean, it's not even close to. And how about these, these pay later options, right? Like that creates even more access, right? All you need is like a decent credit score to get approved for one of those. And suddenly you, It's a layaway. I'll figure it out down the line. And one thing that I didn't bring up earlier is people like to justify. They like to play mind games. They like to tell themselves, well, it's an investment, right? Well, I'm getting something in return. I could always slab these cards up and sell them in a couple months and I'll make it back, right?

33:04 And that's something I did personally for years. I had this outrageous collection and I just told myself they're appreciating assets and I'll sell them if I need to. you know, until, you know, it just, it was too much to handle. It was too much to manage. And the spending became out of control and the gambling became out of control. And it just, you know, I had to sell it all in order to recoup my losses. And, you know, again, like I'm not saying that it's not possible to strategically or intentionally invest and, you know, be smart and savvy when it comes to collecting. But, Again, these environments just make it incredibly easy to lose sight of the big picture.

33:47 One of the things people do in the hobby, we'll keep it to that, I'm sure this happens, when, you know, obviously the hobby's doing very well now, actually. All you hear are all the W's, right? Oh, man, you know, I bought this for $ 1, 000 and sold it for $ 5, 000. But even in the strongest period of the hobby, right, there are still L's going on. People don't necessarily like to admit them or talk about them. I always appreciate, not that I want someone to lose. I don't root against people, but I do always appreciate when someone sort of shares like, Hey, I, you know, I did this and I did this and I came out pretty good here, but let me tell you about a scenario where it wasn't as fruitful or successful.

34:29 Right. And it's just shows you that even in the strongest times, right. It's not like the Midas touched. Everything you do doesn't, is not going to be turned to gold, right. There's going to be, Sometimes you guess wrong. Sometimes you buy wrong. Or you make a bad decision, right? Or you rip a dud box. Yeah. And there's a lot more of those than people always like to admit, right? Yeah. So I always appreciate, again, I hope no one loses, right? That's, you know, not who I am to root against people. Right. But I always, that being said, I always appreciate when someone shares, like, hey, you know, I made a bad call here. It's not the end of the world. But just keep in mind that this can happen, right? Number one, you know, we talk about, like, Bowman prospecting with a lot of these young baseball players. And, you know, they're on cards. They just got drafted. It's insane. 17, 18 years old. And some of these, you know as well as I'm preaching to choir here, and probably many that are listening, you know, these cards are ringing four or five figures, like the colors and the autographs. And they haven't done anything yet.

35:38 John, Jesus Madé. Luis Hernandez, Leo DeVries. These guys sell better than George Brett, Paul Molitor. I see an Ernie Banks behind you. Like, it's crazy. It's crazy. And I did that, you know, full disclosure. I did that before Bowman really escalated in price and some of, like, the escalation in price. I did it where I wasn't necessarily buying. Like, I'd buy a 100-count lot of a player I thought was going, you know, make it. And sometimes you do guess right. Like, it's not all. But, you know, for every, I'd say this, for every 10 guys you buy like that, you're lucky if two or three hit. And sometimes that's less, right?

36:20 And so you've got to keep that in mind. And, you know, when I see people spending five, even six figures on guys like you just mentioned, they haven't done it yet. And you hope they all do. You're better off, if you're going to spend that money, to me, you're better off putting in someone that's their Hall of Famers. Yeah. And so, you know, again, to each their own. I'm not trying to be preachy, but that's sort of my personal take. Yeah, no, I agree. And two things. One, I don't want to sound cynical. Like, I think prospecting can be really fun. You know, I personally enjoy ripping a box of Bowman and not knowing what I'm going to hit. Right. This happened to me back in, I want to say, 2021.

37:00 I ripped a box of Bowman draft. I hit a Carson Williams draft. uh, black refractor on card auto first Bowman, you know, prospect for the, for the raise. And, uh, I had no idea who he was. I flipped over the back and saw he was a first round pick. So I was like, ah, cool. Graded it, got a PSA 10, 10 held onto it for years. Suddenly he's a top five prospect. I ended up selling it, you know, did pretty well on it. A couple of years pass or a couple, however long it was after that. And he fell off, right. He ended up like the next, prospect top 100 cycle he was in the 50s then he was in the 60s then he was in the 70s and then he was finally called up and he was a rookie this past year and he hasn't done anything so again that process of like watching or following uh a prospect uh through the minors can be really fun like i was a fan of his i would watch his highlights i would read about him i would listen to you know sports radio or you know whatever youtube videos would i would cover prospecting and I enjoyed that.

38:04 And it wasn't just Carson Williams. It was a handful of other players. I'm a Yankee fan. Like, you know, I've been following Lombard and Spencer Jones and Dax Kilby, all these kids for a number of years. Like that component can be really fun and rewarding. But at the same time, when you're just buying into the hype, like how many people had any idea who Luis Hernandez was before Bowman Chrome just came? Probably the majority of collectors had no idea who he was. And now suddenly his cards are selling better than some of the iconic you know uh cards behind you which is just crazy. Time for our hobby is the people announcer of the week yo this is the card carver remember the hobby is the people like to be the hobby is the people announcer of the week do a wav or mp3 file and send it to sportscard nation pc at gmail.com