WEBVTT
1
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:07.639
Sports Guardinations, Hobbies, the People, Wheely News and Interviews. It's
2
00:00:07.719 --> 00:00:14.199
your number one soul, sports Garnation Hobby is the people.
3
00:00:17.000 --> 00:00:18.440
Spawns Guarnation.
4
00:00:20.359 --> 00:00:24.760
What is up? Everybody? Welcome to episode three sixty nine
5
00:00:25.079 --> 00:00:29.800
of Sports Cardination. Hope your holiday is a good one
6
00:00:29.960 --> 00:00:33.039
and your new year is off to a great start.
7
00:00:33.439 --> 00:00:36.759
This is part three in our four part series with
8
00:00:37.200 --> 00:00:42.240
attorney Paul LESCo discussing hobby litigation cases, and Paul does
9
00:00:42.280 --> 00:00:45.000
a great job of breaking it down the nuts and
10
00:00:45.039 --> 00:00:48.679
bolts of it, make it easy, making it easy for
11
00:00:48.759 --> 00:00:52.159
us to consume and understand. You don't have to listen
12
00:00:52.200 --> 00:00:55.359
to them necessarily in order, so if you missed one
13
00:00:55.439 --> 00:00:59.000
or two you can go back and catch those. They
14
00:00:59.240 --> 00:01:02.719
one doesn't I kind of break them up where we're
15
00:01:02.719 --> 00:01:07.239
not talking about the same case on two different episodes,
16
00:01:07.280 --> 00:01:09.760
So even if you missed the first two that's being
17
00:01:09.840 --> 00:01:13.319
part three, you can kind of go back and check
18
00:01:13.359 --> 00:01:15.920
it out. You don't have to listen to him in order.
19
00:01:15.959 --> 00:01:20.439
And next week's are part four or four, concluding the
20
00:01:20.560 --> 00:01:23.280
series up and as long as Paul come on, I
21
00:01:23.359 --> 00:01:25.879
think we'll have him on every so up often kind
22
00:01:25.879 --> 00:01:30.439
of the update, what's going on? In the legal side
23
00:01:30.599 --> 00:01:34.480
of the hobby if you will, so as always want
24
00:01:34.519 --> 00:01:39.799
to thank our sponsors, Iron Sports, Cards, Sports Collectors, Digest,
25
00:01:39.920 --> 00:01:43.959
Hobby Hotline, and upper that. So with that being said,
26
00:01:44.200 --> 00:01:48.280
let's get the show started. This is the part three
27
00:01:48.680 --> 00:01:52.599
of our four part series with Paul LESCo, and we're
28
00:01:52.640 --> 00:01:56.120
gonna start out. I'm gonna ask him about when a
29
00:01:56.400 --> 00:02:00.680
company or person loses, you know, a judgment in a
30
00:02:00.760 --> 00:02:03.599
court case where they have to pay money, and if
31
00:02:03.680 --> 00:02:07.159
they don't have money, if they're wage you know, if
32
00:02:07.159 --> 00:02:10.479
it's garnished or it's automatically taken out. So that's where
33
00:02:10.479 --> 00:02:16.319
we start, and then we go into other hobby litigation cases.
34
00:02:16.360 --> 00:02:20.199
I hope you enjoy this series, and there's one more
35
00:02:20.759 --> 00:02:25.039
next week as well. Can there's no garnishing of like
36
00:02:25.159 --> 00:02:28.479
future income or anything like that, Like you you have
37
00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:31.919
to pay restitution, like you have twenty years to pay
38
00:02:32.479 --> 00:02:34.919
twenty thousand dollars. I'm just making up number.
39
00:02:35.000 --> 00:02:38.919
You know, Normally a judge wants payment instantaneously, so when
40
00:02:38.919 --> 00:02:42.159
it comes to you know, if if in this case,
41
00:02:42.199 --> 00:02:46.159
and you know, so, we actually changes the one of
42
00:02:46.159 --> 00:02:47.520
the other cases we want to talk about, and we
43
00:02:47.520 --> 00:02:48.039
can talk.
44
00:02:47.879 --> 00:02:50.080
About it in this way, yeah, go ahead, go ahead. Yeah.
45
00:02:50.080 --> 00:02:54.360
So so the there's been another long running lawsuit.
46
00:02:54.759 --> 00:02:56.000
This is the Lorcanic Cake.
47
00:02:56.199 --> 00:03:00.719
This is Upper Deck versus Ravensburger, Robinsburger and Ryan Miller.
48
00:03:00.919 --> 00:03:04.159
And basically this is a case that was about Ryan
49
00:03:04.199 --> 00:03:07.919
Miller used to be a consultant for Upper Deck working
50
00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:10.199
on a brand new tea that Upper Deck was was
51
00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:14.800
going to release. Ryan Miller left and went to Ravensburger.
52
00:03:14.919 --> 00:03:19.000
Robinsburger then released Lorcana, which is a Disney based trading
53
00:03:19.039 --> 00:03:23.120
card game. Upper Deck saw the rules for Lorcana and
54
00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:25.879
they said, hey, those are our rules.
55
00:03:25.879 --> 00:03:27.719
That's the rules for the game that we were working on.
56
00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:30.560
We think he stole our trade secrets, brought him over
57
00:03:30.560 --> 00:03:33.879
to Robinsburger, came out with a Lorcana game, and now
58
00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:37.319
we're gonna look like we're copying Lorcana. So Upper Decks
59
00:03:37.400 --> 00:03:41.319
sued Ravensburger over the over the Locana game. And this
60
00:03:41.439 --> 00:03:44.680
lawsuit's gone on for three three years. It's been going
61
00:03:44.719 --> 00:03:47.719
on forever. So we finally were getting ready to have
62
00:03:47.759 --> 00:03:50.680
a trial, and right before the trial, one of the
63
00:03:50.719 --> 00:03:54.560
major claims was a copyright infringement claim. Basically, Upper Decks
64
00:03:54.599 --> 00:03:58.280
sued Robinsburger saying you infringed our copyrights in the game.
65
00:03:58.599 --> 00:04:03.560
They sued Ryan Miller saying, hey, you breached your NDAs
66
00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:06.800
to us. You gave confidential information to her side. So
67
00:04:06.879 --> 00:04:10.240
the court held that no, there was no copyright infringement
68
00:04:10.280 --> 00:04:13.800
because you cannot copyright game mechanic and that's really what
69
00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:17.720
you copyright here. None of Upper Deeck's game had Disney characters.
70
00:04:18.399 --> 00:04:20.120
If anything that you're suing on it has to do
71
00:04:20.120 --> 00:04:23.720
with how to the games, and you cannot copyright game mechanics.
72
00:04:23.839 --> 00:04:26.920
It's just basic law that's out there. So right before trial,
73
00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:30.680
Robinsberger got released. Ryan Miller, however, was still in the case,
74
00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:32.319
but he was only in the case for a breach
75
00:04:32.319 --> 00:04:35.120
of contract. And you know, looking at the briefing, it
76
00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:38.199
was basically, at most Upper Deck you can get thirty
77
00:04:38.279 --> 00:04:41.079
nine thousand dollars from him, because that's all you paid
78
00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:44.120
him while he worked for you. So Ryan Miller said,
79
00:04:44.120 --> 00:04:46.319
you know what, it's not worth going to trial. I
80
00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:49.040
will let you get a judgment against me, and he
81
00:04:49.079 --> 00:04:52.759
offered what's called an author of judgment, saying, hey, I'll
82
00:04:52.800 --> 00:04:54.920
pay you the full amount you're asking thirty or I'll
83
00:04:54.959 --> 00:04:57.000
pay you thirty nine thousand dollars. This would be all
84
00:04:57.040 --> 00:04:58.759
that you can get and we don't have to go
85
00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:02.160
to trial. And upper Deck accepted case over. We didn't
86
00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:05.480
have a trial. But it's not because Robinsburger then comes
87
00:05:05.519 --> 00:05:09.000
back and says, hey, upper Deck fought this case against us.
88
00:05:08.800 --> 00:05:12.759
For three years. This was we had twelve different attorneys,
89
00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:15.040
we had experts, we had all these depositions, we had
90
00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:18.000
three point four million dollars of an attorneys.
91
00:05:18.040 --> 00:05:21.199
And because we think this case had no basis, because
92
00:05:21.240 --> 00:05:25.279
you can't copyright game mechanics and because copyright allows you
93
00:05:25.360 --> 00:05:28.399
to fee shi win and is egregious, well, we want
94
00:05:28.480 --> 00:05:32.120
upper Deck now to pay us three point four million dollars,
95
00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:34.959
which is you know, it's it sounds crazy, but that's
96
00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:38.920
probably an accurate amount for attorneys for a copyright case.
97
00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:42.199
But that just shows how a plaintiff's case can go wrong.
98
00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:45.959
Because upper Deck brought the lawsuit. Upper Deck was the plaintiff.
99
00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:49.319
Upper Deck was suing for I can't remember what it was.
100
00:05:49.360 --> 00:05:51.759
If it twenty twenty five million dollars, you know, however
101
00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:53.920
much money it was, it could have been more than that.
102
00:05:54.360 --> 00:05:57.399
And now they may end up paying three point four
103
00:05:57.480 --> 00:05:59.920
million dollars or something around there an attorney.
104
00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:03.839
If the court agrees with Robins vers so so. So
105
00:06:03.879 --> 00:06:05.600
to bring it back to what we were talking about.
106
00:06:05.839 --> 00:06:09.879
So why that's relevant is because if the judge says,
107
00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:13.160
upper deck, you O three point four million dollars that's
108
00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:16.160
due today. You know that's due within the like the
109
00:06:16.399 --> 00:06:18.639
next week. You have to pay it. And now you
110
00:06:18.639 --> 00:06:22.240
can appeal. And if you appeal it, that's fine, we'll
111
00:06:22.279 --> 00:06:24.800
put it in the bank. We'll let it accrue interest.
112
00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:26.959
But you're still paying it just to the bank and
113
00:06:26.959 --> 00:06:27.800
we'll hold on to it.
114
00:06:27.959 --> 00:06:29.000
You're on mute.
115
00:06:29.319 --> 00:06:32.639
Yeah, even if you appeal, you still have to pay.
116
00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:36.360
It just sort of goes into like a middleman fund.
117
00:06:36.399 --> 00:06:38.560
Sure, yeah, you have to post. You have to post
118
00:06:38.600 --> 00:06:39.000
a bond.
119
00:06:39.360 --> 00:06:43.680
Uh So just so just appealing does it delay payment?
120
00:06:44.120 --> 00:06:46.639
Like you still have to pay, just doesn't go to
121
00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:50.199
the winner of the case yet correct the appeal. Wow,
122
00:06:50.240 --> 00:06:52.360
So like you're not off the hook in terms of
123
00:06:52.399 --> 00:06:55.199
financial you still got to cough up to dough. No.
124
00:06:55.319 --> 00:06:57.879
You typically only will see like a garnishment and say
125
00:06:58.079 --> 00:07:02.079
like uh, in a divorce, payments are due automatically on
126
00:07:02.120 --> 00:07:05.759
a on a schedule, and maybe the you know, individual
127
00:07:05.800 --> 00:07:08.439
who needs to be garnished is not the most you know,
128
00:07:08.720 --> 00:07:11.000
does not pay on time all it. Sometimes we'll see
129
00:07:11.000 --> 00:07:14.920
it in maybe a bankruptcy where the plaintiff wants to
130
00:07:15.279 --> 00:07:17.360
or maybe doesn't want to. The court tells the plaintiff
131
00:07:17.519 --> 00:07:20.360
that he has to make these debts as whole as possible.
132
00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:21.399
So what we're gonna do is.
133
00:07:21.319 --> 00:07:23.120
We're gonna garnish your paycheck for that.
134
00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:26.079
However, typically when a case wins, if it's not bankruptcy
135
00:07:26.120 --> 00:07:28.360
or if it's not like a family law matter like that.
136
00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:31.120
The money is due like almost yeah.
137
00:07:31.160 --> 00:07:33.920
Yeah, see I learned something right there, Paul. So let
138
00:07:33.920 --> 00:07:37.079
me ask you going back to this upper Deck versus
139
00:07:37.560 --> 00:07:41.040
robins Burger case. Can upper Deck point to the fact
140
00:07:41.040 --> 00:07:44.079
that Ryan Miller in a sense pleaded sort of no
141
00:07:44.279 --> 00:07:48.480
contest the way like he did to say, well, that's
142
00:07:48.519 --> 00:07:51.839
why we shouldn't have to pay. Uh, you know, we
143
00:07:52.079 --> 00:07:55.319
really kind of won that case in a sense, why
144
00:07:55.360 --> 00:07:56.360
do we have to pay?
145
00:07:56.720 --> 00:07:57.160
We won?
146
00:07:57.560 --> 00:07:57.680
Why?
147
00:07:57.959 --> 00:08:00.000
That's exactly you know, and that's exactly what they're doing.
148
00:08:00.439 --> 00:08:04.240
So upper Deck is saying, these two you know, you're
149
00:08:04.319 --> 00:08:06.439
you're you know robins Berger, you're trying to say there's
150
00:08:06.439 --> 00:08:07.160
two cases.
151
00:08:07.199 --> 00:08:07.600
They're not.
152
00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:11.879
These cases are so intertwined and regardless as to whether
153
00:08:12.120 --> 00:08:14.680
that we only paid thirty nine thousand dollars, this was
154
00:08:14.720 --> 00:08:19.040
a complex contract action that involved intellectual property. So the
155
00:08:19.079 --> 00:08:20.920
analysis is that we need to do for this, were
156
00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:24.839
the same for this. You can't cut the cases in half. Robinsberger,
157
00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:26.920
on the other hand, is saying, no, they're completely different.
158
00:08:27.079 --> 00:08:30.480
That was the breach of contract for allegedly sharing something
159
00:08:30.519 --> 00:08:33.720
he shouldn't have shared. This is a copyright infringement case
160
00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:36.200
having into the game. So it'll it'll really turn on
161
00:08:36.679 --> 00:08:38.840
what does the judge do. Does he does she view
162
00:08:38.879 --> 00:08:42.120
the cases as completely intertwined, or does she think that,
163
00:08:42.360 --> 00:08:44.919
you know, these are separable cases, and if they're separable,
164
00:08:44.960 --> 00:08:47.120
maybe some of the attorneys should be allocated to this
165
00:08:47.159 --> 00:08:49.840
and some of the attorneys' it's it's fascinating and I
166
00:08:49.840 --> 00:08:52.759
can't wait to see. We haven't seen Upper Deck's response
167
00:08:52.879 --> 00:08:54.960
yet to the fees, so I'm looking forward to seeing
168
00:08:55.039 --> 00:08:57.639
that and then definitely looking forward to seeing how the judge.
169
00:08:57.759 --> 00:09:01.519
What happens if someone doesn't want either doesn't pay it,
170
00:09:01.679 --> 00:09:04.240
or doesn't have the money to pay. Even in an
171
00:09:04.320 --> 00:09:08.840
Upper decks case. Let's say they're like whatever reason they're
172
00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:13.120
criving poverty, or we we lost money the last three years,
173
00:09:13.159 --> 00:09:16.879
so we don't we don't have that capital to pay.
174
00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:21.480
Like what happens legality wise when that occurs?
175
00:09:21.480 --> 00:09:23.519
If the so you.
176
00:09:23.519 --> 00:09:25.759
Really have you know, there's basically two options, you know,
177
00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:28.639
because when when a judge rules or there's a judgment
178
00:09:28.679 --> 00:09:31.240
out there, if you don't pay, you're in contempt of
179
00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:33.279
the court ordered you to do something.
180
00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:35.480
You have to do something. So you can try to.
181
00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:38.120
File a motion with the court and explain hardship or
182
00:09:38.399 --> 00:09:40.879
you know, explain what's going on, but invariably what the
183
00:09:40.879 --> 00:09:43.840
court will say, Okay, go to bankruptcy court. You need
184
00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:46.919
to open up a bankruptcy matter, get a trustee involved,
185
00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:49.440
and let the trustee determine how much money do you
186
00:09:49.519 --> 00:09:50.200
actually have and.
187
00:09:50.159 --> 00:09:51.039
How much you can pay.
188
00:09:51.200 --> 00:09:53.679
Because there's only so much you can trust the other
189
00:09:53.759 --> 00:09:57.480
side about. They'll they'll want an entirely new matter opened up.
190
00:09:57.679 --> 00:09:59.960
Well, if you couldn't jud I was gonna say, couldn't
191
00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:02.080
judge say I want to see your books or open
192
00:10:02.159 --> 00:10:05.399
your books, like you can say you're broke, so I need.
193
00:10:05.559 --> 00:10:08.960
Yeah, judges are yeah, they're typically so busy they don't
194
00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:11.320
they don't do that. So typically the judges will just
195
00:10:11.399 --> 00:10:12.840
say I want the other side is to show me
196
00:10:12.879 --> 00:10:15.159
what's going on in a bankruptcy a court. When you
197
00:10:15.200 --> 00:10:18.679
have a bankruptcy trustee, they are more aggressive. They will
198
00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:20.759
actually ask for things, they will look for things. It
199
00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:22.759
is their job to dig into it. But it takes
200
00:10:22.759 --> 00:10:25.519
a long time. A normal judge won't have time to
201
00:10:25.600 --> 00:10:28.240
go through all that. That's why they probably require a
202
00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:31.559
completely separate bankruptcy matter to be open. So and just
203
00:10:31.759 --> 00:10:33.799
just to be clear, you know, we're we're not saying
204
00:10:33.799 --> 00:10:35.720
that upper Deck can't pay. If they have to pay
205
00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:37.440
three point four million dollars, we can't say that they
206
00:10:37.480 --> 00:10:40.679
would go into bankruptcy. I fully imagine if there is
207
00:10:40.879 --> 00:10:43.879
a you know, bad judgment against upper Deck, it could
208
00:10:43.879 --> 00:10:45.919
post the bond while it fights the peal.
209
00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:47.159
And it has.
210
00:10:47.080 --> 00:10:49.919
Already said that it's appealing the case itself. It'll just
211
00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:51.399
be one more issue to go upon a people.
212
00:10:51.480 --> 00:10:54.399
Yeah that it is interesting now and now a judge
213
00:10:54.399 --> 00:10:57.679
has to determine was this one case everything or was
214
00:10:57.759 --> 00:11:01.240
this one case actually two cases? And if that's the ruling,
215
00:11:01.679 --> 00:11:06.960
we're not done as leek Horso would say, not so fast,
216
00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:11.840
my friend, exactly right, exactly so, yeah, that'll be that'll
217
00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:15.159
be interesting to see how that winds up.
218
00:11:15.639 --> 00:11:18.679
It's time for a quick break. Bots will be right fag.
219
00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:24.159
Iron Sports Cards is your number one source for all
220
00:11:24.200 --> 00:11:27.559
your PSA and other grading submissions. Their elite status improves
221
00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:30.799
turnaround times. Heck, they even provide the card savers. Their
222
00:11:30.840 --> 00:11:33.879
chap rooms provide updates on all your submissions. They also
223
00:11:33.919 --> 00:11:36.879
offer wax options and single cards to cover all the bases.
224
00:11:37.159 --> 00:11:39.519
Check them out on Facebook at Iron Sports Cards Group
225
00:11:39.720 --> 00:11:42.279
or on the web at Iron Sportscards dot com, or
226
00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:45.240
even give them a call at one eight seven seven
227
00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:48.639
I ro o n p SA. Rob's got you covered.
228
00:11:52.240 --> 00:11:55.480
Sports Comnation has resons.
229
00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:02.039
Kind of rolling right into you. Our next case talking
230
00:12:02.080 --> 00:12:07.200
about two hobby companies manufacturers right litigation. This one a
231
00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:11.039
little bit more recent, not that the others aren't recent reason,
232
00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:13.840
but this one I think, uh even more recent with
233
00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:18.279
the wild Card versus Panini, and I'll kind of start
234
00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:21.440
off and you can kind of correct my errors if
235
00:12:21.480 --> 00:12:26.240
you will, But wild Card suing Panini for anti trust,
236
00:12:26.279 --> 00:12:30.799
basically saying Panini went to distributors and threatened them, Hey, like,
237
00:12:30.840 --> 00:12:33.879
if you want to carry our products and get allocation
238
00:12:34.120 --> 00:12:38.440
from us, you'll turn turn a cold shoulder to to
239
00:12:38.600 --> 00:12:44.240
wild Card and not carry uh theirs and dirty you know,
240
00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:48.039
dirty tactics if true, and uh, but not the first
241
00:12:48.039 --> 00:12:53.799
time that whatever happened, uh in the history of the world. Uh,
242
00:12:53.840 --> 00:12:54.879
how did I describe it?
243
00:12:55.480 --> 00:12:56.679
I think I think you nailed it.
244
00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:00.759
I mean, you really did, because it's the It's kind
245
00:13:00.759 --> 00:13:03.000
of funny because you know, in the background, what we
246
00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:07.000
have going on is Panine's anti trust lawsuit against Fanatics
247
00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:10.840
that's been ongoing for a while right now, where Panine's
248
00:13:10.879 --> 00:13:15.679
basically saying, hey, we had the NBA products, we have
249
00:13:15.759 --> 00:13:19.440
the NFL products, and now we've lost them both. And
250
00:13:19.799 --> 00:13:23.919
Fanatics has too many licenses. They have MLB, they have NBA,
251
00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:27.320
they have NFL they have that's too many and there
252
00:13:27.399 --> 00:13:31.320
are licenses. I'm oversimplifying, but that's basically what's going on there.
253
00:13:31.559 --> 00:13:34.120
So jump to what happened, and I think it was
254
00:13:34.120 --> 00:13:39.159
filed in early November, is when Wildcard filed against Panini,
255
00:13:39.399 --> 00:13:43.559
basically saying, hey, back when you had the NFL license,
256
00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:46.679
back when you had the NBA license, we were trying
257
00:13:46.679 --> 00:13:49.320
to compete against. You were the big dog that was
258
00:13:49.360 --> 00:13:51.919
out there. You were the one that the distributors were
259
00:13:51.919 --> 00:13:56.120
listening to. And because you made the alleged threat that
260
00:13:56.159 --> 00:13:59.000
if you do business with wild Card, you know, bad
261
00:13:59.000 --> 00:13:59.759
things will happen.
262
00:13:59.799 --> 00:14:01.399
You know, don't do business with them or else. I
263
00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:02.240
don't run the.
264
00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:05.080
Exact language, but it was something along those lines that
265
00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:06.519
within like a.
266
00:14:06.559 --> 00:14:10.519
Three day period, we lost four distributors. Distributors, we were.
267
00:14:10.360 --> 00:14:13.120
Already doing this and the only thing that changed in
268
00:14:13.159 --> 00:14:16.919
between now and then was you had a conference with
269
00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:20.159
the distributors. We alleged these things were said, and then
270
00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:22.320
a few weeks later, within this you know.
271
00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:24.600
Three or four day period, we lost four distries.
272
00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:28.600
So it's basically, Panini, you had market power and you
273
00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:32.039
misused your market power, which is funny because that's what
274
00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:35.919
the Panini is saying the fanatics, fanatics, you now have
275
00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:39.840
market power, but you misused it and that's what hurt us.
276
00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:42.279
So it's it's just fascinating that you normally don't have
277
00:14:42.320 --> 00:14:47.240
two anti trust lawsuits ongoing for the same area at
278
00:14:47.240 --> 00:14:47.879
the same time.
279
00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:49.159
So it's a fun.
280
00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:50.879
One and I think it's gonna be a tricky one
281
00:14:50.919 --> 00:14:53.399
for Panini because you have to be very careful to
282
00:14:53.480 --> 00:14:57.639
not have inconsistent position between both cases. You know, if
283
00:14:57.679 --> 00:15:00.840
you're saying fanatics did something and it's bad and whoops,
284
00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:03.440
we did the same thing here, well, that looks like
285
00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:05.480
it's an admission that you did something. The way that
286
00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:08.679
these two cases interplay between themselves is it's gonna be fascinating.
287
00:15:08.759 --> 00:15:11.240
It's like the last scene in Anchorman when all the
288
00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:14.159
Anchormen are like just trying to kill each other and
289
00:15:15.320 --> 00:15:16.480
you know, machetes.
290
00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:17.080
Yeah.
291
00:15:17.159 --> 00:15:20.480
I would tell me if if this is correct, Paul, Like,
292
00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:24.759
if if Wildcard is bringing this case to court right
293
00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:28.279
in alleging this, it's gotta be more than To me,
294
00:15:28.519 --> 00:15:31.559
I would think it's more than Hey, you had these
295
00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:35.399
these meetings and then this happened. I gotta think somebody
296
00:15:35.519 --> 00:15:38.840
went to Wildcard and said, hey, this is what Like,
297
00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:40.919
there's got to be more than that. I think someone
298
00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:44.320
had to like spill the tea, right that so and
299
00:15:44.360 --> 00:15:49.200
so did this and said this to us. You know this, right,
300
00:15:49.559 --> 00:15:50.519
I would think so.
301
00:15:50.759 --> 00:15:55.279
Yeah, because they because we don't get those specifics in
302
00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:58.159
the complaint, and you don't need those specifics at the complaint,
303
00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:01.440
but they do allege that there was a distributor conference,
304
00:16:01.559 --> 00:16:05.559
and at this distributor conference, somebody from Panini said, so
305
00:16:06.039 --> 00:16:09.440
we you know, it sounds like I doubt Wildcard was there,
306
00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:12.240
So it sounds like somebody, Yeah, somebody who was at
307
00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:17.240
that distributor conference told Wildcard what happened. As the case progresses,
308
00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:19.399
maybe we'll find out who they are. You know, who
309
00:16:19.399 --> 00:16:22.480
they are, what they said, and were there other instances
310
00:16:22.519 --> 00:16:25.320
of this. So we'll just have to wait till the
311
00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:29.919
case develops. But we had a filing in the Panini
312
00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:32.559
versus Fanatics matter, and it has to do with discovery.
313
00:16:32.759 --> 00:16:34.039
It's a boring filing.
314
00:16:34.279 --> 00:16:38.240
But in their Panini does say that they allege the
315
00:16:38.279 --> 00:16:41.799
Wildcard case is a frivolous loss. They say there's no
316
00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:44.480
merit to it and we're gonna win that one going away.
317
00:16:44.600 --> 00:16:47.600
So I'm looking for I'm looking forward to seeing what
318
00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:50.919
Panini's response is in court to the lassit. We haven't
319
00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:54.080
seen that one yet. Panini just got served. They we
320
00:16:54.159 --> 00:16:57.360
probably won't see their response for maybe forty five days.
321
00:16:57.360 --> 00:16:58.399
Sixty days you.
322
00:16:58.360 --> 00:17:00.759
Normally get a little bit more extra time for antitrust case.
323
00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:03.279
But it will be fascinating to see what they respond.
324
00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:04.119
And I guarantee.
325
00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:06.359
It's going to be a motion to dismiss saying the
326
00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:08.559
wild Card case has no merit, and I think it'll
327
00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:09.200
be fun reading.
328
00:17:09.319 --> 00:17:13.920
Whenever case gets resolved first will have any kind of
329
00:17:13.960 --> 00:17:16.880
bearing on the other one. If it's still that one's
330
00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:17.759
still going on.
331
00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:20.880
Well, I think whichever case gets resolved first, it'll be
332
00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:24.799
the Wildcard case, because the Fanatics case, as complicated as that,
333
00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:26.720
that's going to be going until twenty twenty eight. I
334
00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:29.799
mean there are we got at least three more years
335
00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:30.079
on that.
336
00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:31.200
Anti trust cases.
337
00:17:31.240 --> 00:17:34.680
They basically involved almost almost all the document you have,
338
00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:37.720
because it has to do with damages, it has to
339
00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:40.160
do with your licenses, it has to do products. This
340
00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:43.559
case has to do with manufacturing. I mean it's not
341
00:17:43.640 --> 00:17:46.640
just for Fanatic side, but also from East side too,
342
00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:50.119
So there's huge volumes of documents that are going back
343
00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:52.279
and forth. But then also you have to have a
344
00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:54.279
lot of witnesses that you're going to be talking to,
345
00:17:54.759 --> 00:17:57.559
and then you have to have experts, and the experts
346
00:17:57.559 --> 00:18:01.640
in anti trust cases are so expensive and they take
347
00:18:01.720 --> 00:18:04.640
so long to do their stuff, so that case is
348
00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:08.279
gonna take a long time. The wild Card case that's
349
00:18:08.680 --> 00:18:12.279
very focused it's saying, Panini, you have market power. We
350
00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:15.599
think you know, according to the what you have filed
351
00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:18.359
in the Fanatics case that you're admitting you have market power.
352
00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:20.160
You were the marketing. So we don't really need to
353
00:18:20.200 --> 00:18:20.839
go into that.
354
00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:23.079
All we need to go into is what was said
355
00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:26.000
at the distributor meeting, what was said to the distributors,
356
00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:28.319
and why did the distributors actually leave?
357
00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:30.519
And so I think that's a much simpler case.
358
00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:33.720
So I could see the wild Card case, even though
359
00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:36.839
it was filed two years later and two years afterwards,
360
00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:40.559
it could end itself in probably if it goes all
361
00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:43.079
the way, probably two years. That's probably only a two
362
00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:45.799
year case. So even though it was later filed, it
363
00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:49.119
could take two years. And I guarantee Fanatics is going
364
00:18:49.119 --> 00:18:52.680
to be watching that case, and anytime Panini slips up
365
00:18:52.680 --> 00:18:55.160
in that case, or anytime there's good evidence, you know,
366
00:18:55.480 --> 00:18:55.759
all their.
367
00:18:55.759 --> 00:18:57.640
Lawyers are jotting it down and like we're gonna bring
368
00:18:57.720 --> 00:18:58.480
this in new ar case.
369
00:18:58.559 --> 00:19:00.880
Well, I was gonna ask you that could a Panini
370
00:19:01.039 --> 00:19:04.240
loss in the wild Card case actually help them in
371
00:19:04.279 --> 00:19:07.480
their case against Fanatics? In other words, it would it's
372
00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:11.200
like losing losing a battle to win the war to
373
00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:13.880
use an old you know, military.
374
00:19:13.720 --> 00:19:16.599
And that's that that could that could be you know,
375
00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:18.799
I could be a way to do it too, because
376
00:19:18.839 --> 00:19:21.880
they could in essence have something that said, you know,
377
00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:25.000
like for fanatics, I mean, because one of the big
378
00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:29.079
fights in a anti trust case is what is the market?
379
00:19:29.319 --> 00:19:31.559
You know, because you need to have a specific definition
380
00:19:31.640 --> 00:19:34.680
of what is the market in which you are the monopoly.
381
00:19:34.839 --> 00:19:38.079
So and that's that's one of the complex things about
382
00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:42.319
the Panine fanatics case. Is it MLB cards, is it
383
00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:45.160
NFL cards, is it NBA cards?
384
00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:47.160
Is it all trading cards?
385
00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:50.759
Is it all trading cards minus aretcgs in there? Is
386
00:19:50.799 --> 00:19:51.440
it wrestling?
387
00:19:51.799 --> 00:19:52.160
I mean?
388
00:19:52.279 --> 00:19:56.119
You know, so there's so many different combinations and permutations.
389
00:19:56.359 --> 00:20:00.240
So you could see that the lower that the wild
390
00:20:00.279 --> 00:20:03.440
card court could come and say, hey, it's all trading
391
00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:07.160
cards all together, including TCGs and everything else. And because
392
00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:09.720
of that, Panini, you don't have market power. This case
393
00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:11.960
goes by by well that the fanatics could say, hey,
394
00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:15.920
that case down there said it's all trading cards, and
395
00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:18.240
there's this company over here called Nintendo and they own
396
00:20:18.279 --> 00:20:21.799
Pokemon and they're bigger than us. So if it's all
397
00:20:21.799 --> 00:20:24.039
trading cards, you have to look at Pokemon, you have
398
00:20:24.039 --> 00:20:25.839
to look at Magic, you have to look at everything else.
399
00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:27.519
And we're not even in a monopolis. We don't even
400
00:20:27.559 --> 00:20:28.720
have market power in that.
401
00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:33.599
So yeah, no, whatever happens in the wild card case
402
00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:36.559
could definitely affect the fanatic.
403
00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:40.079
What it behoove Panini to like And I'll ask you this,
404
00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:43.200
you know, I don't know the behoof Panini to say
405
00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:47.119
our bad Yeah, we we we slipped off the rails
406
00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:50.079
and we're gonna pay you, and then try to use
407
00:20:50.119 --> 00:20:52.880
that as like, hey, we did the same thing. We're
408
00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:55.359
not proud of that, but this is why we should
409
00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:58.279
win the fanatics lawsuit.
410
00:20:57.880 --> 00:21:01.039
For the said reason. There's all types of options.
411
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:04.119
It's it's you know, I've seen it in other cases
412
00:21:04.680 --> 00:21:08.400
where where you have multiple lawsuits between parties where one
413
00:21:08.440 --> 00:21:12.640
of the parties resolves the action with somebody else provided
414
00:21:12.759 --> 00:21:14.279
you give us favorable testimony.
415
00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:16.440
In this other case, I mean, it's it's not worded
416
00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:16.640
like that.
417
00:21:16.759 --> 00:21:18.759
It sounds like you're paying for a witness, but it's
418
00:21:18.759 --> 00:21:21.519
more of a hey, if you will testify as to
419
00:21:21.559 --> 00:21:24.920
exactly what you testified here, because we think it helps us,
420
00:21:25.119 --> 00:21:27.279
we'll pay you. But you just testify and you say
421
00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:29.359
the same thing here, and that'll give us the win.
422
00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:30.759
So there's mull time.
423
00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:33.400
I mean, that's that's what's really needed about anti trust cases.
424
00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:36.319
It's like, you know, like a like a like an
425
00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:38.920
auto like a car crash case. That's kind of like
426
00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:41.319
tick teck. But then you get to more complex cases
427
00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:44.559
like these commercial disputes over contracts and everything else, that's
428
00:21:44.680 --> 00:21:47.079
like chess. But when you get to anti trust and
429
00:21:47.079 --> 00:21:50.000
competing anti trust actions, well, now you've got three D
430
00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:53.000
chess and it's just it's just really fun stuff to
431
00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:57.039
watch because every move does affect everything else that happens.
432
00:21:57.039 --> 00:21:59.359
And when you have that across a couple of different cases,
433
00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:01.559
who knows, it's so many variables, it's so.
434
00:22:01.559 --> 00:22:02.359
Fun to lie.
435
00:22:02.519 --> 00:22:06.200
One last question with the Panini wildcard thing. Obviously someone
436
00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:11.039
maybe from Wildcard or the distributor, tipped off Wildcard Debt
437
00:22:11.480 --> 00:22:14.400
that this was a play Panini made and they kind
438
00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:17.519
of strong armed us. Would that person have to be
439
00:22:17.640 --> 00:22:21.640
subpoenaed and have to make a statement and core and
440
00:22:21.680 --> 00:22:24.640
if so, would they have to be identified where they
441
00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:29.160
could their employment potentially could be at risk? You know,
442
00:22:29.319 --> 00:22:31.440
I know, it shouldn't be like that but we know
443
00:22:31.519 --> 00:22:33.240
how that goes, right, right.
444
00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:37.640
No, in any lawsuit, both sides have to be completely open.
445
00:22:37.799 --> 00:22:38.359
You cannot.
446
00:22:38.519 --> 00:22:40.440
You know, despite the fact that you've seen TV shows
447
00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:43.559
where there's a surprise witness at trial, that never happens.
448
00:22:43.720 --> 00:22:45.680
If you showed up to a trial with a surprise witness,
449
00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:48.000
the judge would not let you have that witness. So
450
00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:52.200
each side has to fully disclose their witnesses, their evidence,
451
00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:54.920
and let the other side poke at it. So, yes,
452
00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:57.599
that all that information would have to be disclosed. If
453
00:22:57.640 --> 00:23:00.720
it was a individual from a third party, from a distributor,
454
00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:05.319
then either they can voluntarily testify or yes, they could
455
00:23:05.319 --> 00:23:08.359
be subpoena uh and and brought into this end even
456
00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:10.319
if they don't want to, they could be subpoena to be.
457
00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:12.440
I was gonna say, though, what if they say, listen,
458
00:23:12.880 --> 00:23:15.200
I want to tell the truth. But if I go
459
00:23:15.319 --> 00:23:18.039
on the stand and tell the truth, my company, you know,
460
00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:22.160
Jimmy's distributing, I'll use a fictitio will fire me. I
461
00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:26.039
will lose my like I'll be committing employment suicide. Like
462
00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:28.839
and so I can't do it. Like what what you know,
463
00:23:28.920 --> 00:23:32.559
what happens when that happened? Well, how does that work.
464
00:23:32.599 --> 00:23:34.079
When you when when you're under oath.
465
00:23:34.359 --> 00:23:35.960
You know what they tell you when you're under oath
466
00:23:36.039 --> 00:23:38.720
is you have to testify to the truth, the whole truth,
467
00:23:38.920 --> 00:23:39.960
and nothing but the truth.
468
00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:41.559
It's not going to give you.
469
00:23:41.319 --> 00:23:44.319
Uh, you know, the exemptions there Now, there are protections
470
00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:47.119
that you could have in cases. You can have confidentiality
471
00:23:47.319 --> 00:23:50.519
agreements so that it's not known to the world that's
472
00:23:50.559 --> 00:23:53.480
out there, but it'll be known, uh to the parties
473
00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:56.680
that are there. And depending on which side you're on, well,
474
00:23:56.720 --> 00:24:00.000
the fact that somebody is bringing undue pressure on this individual,
475
00:24:00.279 --> 00:24:03.000
it could help their case. So, I know, I hate
476
00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:05.359
to say that. You know, lawyers like cases when they
477
00:24:05.400 --> 00:24:08.839
get really awful because it means the damages go up. Well,
478
00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:11.200
if you have strife like this between a witness and
479
00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:13.960
a witness is being pressured, depending on who you are,
480
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:16.160
you may want that you may want to bring that
481
00:24:16.200 --> 00:24:18.319
out because it might ultimately help your client.
482
00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:23.160
Yeah, that's definitely a lot of tentacles involved. There's especially
483
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:26.160
in the case because now you have Panini wildcard in
484
00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:29.039
a distributor, you got sort of that you know, they're
485
00:24:29.079 --> 00:24:32.039
sort of caught in the middle, and it's probably because
486
00:24:32.039 --> 00:24:34.480
of them that the case even you know, they're one
487
00:24:34.519 --> 00:24:36.240
of the reason, I'm not saying the only reason, but
488
00:24:36.599 --> 00:24:39.880
probably one of the main cogs of why this is
489
00:24:39.960 --> 00:24:44.079
even a case in litigation to begin with, right, because
490
00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:48.920
they whoever agreed like, yeah, we're not gonna carry Wildcard, right,
491
00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:53.359
they allowed themselves to be strong armed, and here we are. Right.
492
00:24:53.480 --> 00:24:57.319
So it'll be interesting and like you said, it'll be
493
00:24:57.400 --> 00:25:01.400
interesting to see how one plays into the bigger one, which,
494
00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:05.759
like you said, Panini Wilco will probably wrap up before
495
00:25:06.119 --> 00:25:09.039
the Panini Fanatics one does.
496
00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:13.039
And so there's already a fight Panini versus Fanatics case
497
00:25:13.240 --> 00:25:17.400
where it looks like Fanatics has already sent a subpoena
498
00:25:17.519 --> 00:25:20.400
too wild Card, basically asking for give us all the
499
00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:24.960
good stuff for it, and Panini's actually fighting that saying, hey,
500
00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:27.680
you can't do well. I think Fanatics is gonna win that,
501
00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:31.400
but it's fun to say win. They'll win the documents
502
00:25:31.400 --> 00:25:33.799
from that subpoena. But I mean, but you can already
503
00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:37.039
see the pressure points are already building between the both.
504
00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:41.079
Yeah again, you know, like I said, you know, whether
505
00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:43.880
you have whether you follow it, you like this stuff.
506
00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:48.200
I mean this it is has a bearing on what
507
00:25:48.359 --> 00:25:52.319
comes after and down the line in the Hobby. So well,
508
00:25:52.359 --> 00:25:56.440
whether you're interested or not, these cases matter, right, that's
509
00:25:56.440 --> 00:25:59.559
gonna do it for this week's episode. Again, this is
510
00:25:59.599 --> 00:26:04.759
a four part series with Paul LESCo who is a
511
00:26:04.839 --> 00:26:08.920
lawyer or an attorney, but also a hobbyist and collector51200:26:09.279 --> 00:26:14.119
and follows these court cases and does a great job51300:26:14.799 --> 00:26:17.400
getting to the nuts and bolts and then again exp51400:26:17.799 --> 00:26:20.680
you know, he understands everything, but it's a talent to51500:26:21.359 --> 00:26:26.039
explain to someone who's not in the legal profession what51600:26:26.240 --> 00:26:28.480
is really going on to the t and he does51700:26:28.519 --> 00:26:30.240
a great job of that. That's why we have him51800:26:30.279 --> 00:26:33.640
on besides being a great guy. So we have one51900:26:33.720 --> 00:26:39.640
more part four next week on next week's episode. And52000:26:39.759 --> 00:26:43.839
I've kept these episodes short, especially when it becomes you know,52100:26:43.880 --> 00:26:47.119
because we're talking about legal stuff. I think sometimes shorter52200:26:47.759 --> 00:26:51.200
is sweeter. So hope you enjoying this series. One more52300:26:51.240 --> 00:26:53.559
to go. We're gonna wrap up this week's episode with52400:26:54.079 --> 00:26:57.519
the Hobby is the People Announcer of the Week, and52500:26:58.240 --> 00:26:59.359
we'll see you soon.52600:27:00.240 --> 00:27:04.079
Time for our Hobby is the People Announcer of the Week.52700:27:07.319 --> 00:27:11.079
Hello, this is Mark Hoyle, and remember the Hobby52800:27:11.359 --> 00:27:14.680
Is the People If you'd like to be the Hobby52900:27:14.720 --> 00:27:17.759
is the People Announcer of the Week to A or53000:27:17.839 --> 00:27:21.480
MP three file and send it to Sportscard Nation PC53100:27:21.839 --> 00:27:24.599
at gmail dot com.
Apple Podcasts 
Spotify 
RSS Feed 
PocketCasts 
Overcast 
Castro 
