WEBVTT
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Sports Guard Nations.
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Hobby is the people weekly news and interviews.
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It's your number one song.
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Spores Guarnation Hobby is the people.
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Sports Guy Nation.
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What is up? Everybody? Welcome to episode three seventy of
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Sports Cardination, Part four. I don't like calling them parts
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because you don't have to listen to him in order.
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But the fourth installment of our Hobby legal series with
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Attorney Paul LESCo and friend and a Great Guy breaks
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it down for us in simple terms. This is the
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fourth installment of the previous three were the previous three weeks,
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so this will wrap it up for now with Paul
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and a couple of cases. On today's episode, we're gonna
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talk about the Spiegel versus Golden case, which involves a
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lebron RPA and dispute over the patch, whether it's real
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or not, and the value that was affected by it.
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And we've mostly have probably heard about the PSA nines
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magically turning into PSA ten, so we're going to touch
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on that. It's not in the court case at least
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not at this point, but we're going to kind of
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talk about maybe some of the legal ramifications of that,
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the optics of it and all that good stuff so
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always fun, you know, and these cases are current, right
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and relative, so very important. I want to thank my sponsors,
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Iron Sports Cards, SCD Sports Collectors, Digest, High Heatline, and
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Upper Deck. So without further ado, let's start the show.
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All right, here is the last installment of our Hobby
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Legal series with attorney Paul LESCo, and we're gonna start
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off talking about something that actually isn't in court yet.
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I say, yeah, but we'll see how this plays out.
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But we probably most of you have probably heard about
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the PSA controversy of them buying back cards and they
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miraculously go from nine to ten. So we're talking about that,
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maybe potentially seeing litigation or how the optics of it.
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You know, we're not done with with PSA just yet, Paul.
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We're not letting them go like this one's really well listen,
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you know, maybe they're picking out of themselves.
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Yeah, I mean that's really the problem. You become the
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big guy out there, you're gonna.
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Make some people.
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Yeah.
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So the this is really fresh and ongoing, right, We've
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got now you even alerted me to the fact that
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another person has alleged to this right that they had
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their cards graded they got some nines, they sold them
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to PSA, and those nines with the same certain number,
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and again, correct me if any of this is inaccurate,
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the same certain number miraculously became up got upgraded the
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tens now that PSA is in possession of them and
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reselling them. If this is true, I'm not I have
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friends that work at PSA. I've used them. I used
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them sometimes even now. If this is true, you know,
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there's always that thing, right, I'm sure you've heard it, like,
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how would it PSA ever get knocked off? Like the
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number one line in the grading. I think it's a
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story potentially like this. I'm not saying it is. I'm
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not making that prediction, but it's something like this where
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all integrity potentially is lost and they're looked at as
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a true evil umpire. If this, if these allegations in
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fact turn to be correct and accurate, this, what do
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you There's no really reasonable explanation. You've already It's not
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like they sent that to another grading company and got there.
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They just changed it in house. It's like, you know,
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I mean, I know, I just threw a lot at
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you at one time, but but go ahead, you know,
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way in.
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Here and and I'll start I am very cynical when
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it comes to subjective grading.
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I can't tell a nine from it. I cannot. So
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whenever I have the.
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Option, if there's a card out there, if the ten
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is out of reach and the nine is less than
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a raw card, I'm buying a nine. It's pretty me
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And given the fact that it's no secret, if you
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get a bunch of ninees back, you know a lot
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of people will crack them and just reset them back
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in and they'll get some ten. I think subjective grading
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is you know, I think it's something that everybody accepts,
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and I don't think we should. But I think the
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reason it happens is because people aren't smitty cards to
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be graded because they want a third party to say
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your card is pretty. They want the ten so they
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can sell the card and make more money. So if
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you're doing business with somebody who gives tens and they're
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the most expensive.
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Ten, I e would go, Paul, I would go a
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step further. You hit the nail right in the head.
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But even people who aren't selling it right at the moment,
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they still want the ten. Whether it's an ego thing
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or the fact that maybe they're gonna sell it, not
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this year, not next year, but five years from now
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we're ten year. You still want that ten right for
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more than just financial reason. But financial reasons lead obviously
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lead lead the way, but go ahead. I just had
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to exactly to just try. I'm in there a little bit, but.
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No, no, So I mean, thank you, I mean, but
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it really is. It's just like that the PSA ten
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is what everybody wants. It is that's the high dollar
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mark for everything. So until people's believe that there's another
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company who's ten is better, everyone's gonna still keep going
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back to PSA and here. So I used to be
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a defense attorney. I started off my career from my
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first five years, I worked for a large defense so
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I actually represented the large companies and you would see,
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you know, not in this area, but you would see
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cases kind of like this, and invariably the way that
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I always always looked at it is sometimes stupidity looks
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like evil intent from the outside. And that's like when
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it comes to like fraud cases. That's one of the
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biggest defenses to fraud cases is we're not evil, we're stupid.
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And that's kind of like you know potentially. You know,
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I always try to look at things from both sides,
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and when I look at it here, it's like, well,
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if you if I'm getting it right? What PSA says
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that they did as these cards went for a second
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internal review, and in that second internal review somebody graded
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I guess three of them or three out of the
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ten they were nines and became tens. Well, I think
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we all know nines and ten's are pretty interchangeable, and
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depending on if the greater head you know, had an
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extra cup of coffee and feels good, he's going to
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give more tens than nine because they all look the same. So,
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you know, I don't really see this as like a
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critique on PSA.
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Doing anything bad or doing anything evil.
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I see it as a critique on people got to
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get over this big gap between nines and tens.
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I think nines and tens.
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Should be a lot closer in value than they are,
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and not like this because they are interchangeable, and so
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I think this is just one of those insid that
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shows nine and tens should be closer. They shouldn't be
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this far. For me, I don't think it's really evilness.
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I just see because when you're gambling with stuff that's
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so close looking at a nine, looking at ten. And
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that's why I joked about it like three months ago.
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I think at the National we need to have a
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game shift where each grading company puts three of their
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graders up and they all grade the same card, and
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we'll see when it comes up, and then we'll send
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the second you send the card through again and see
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if they, you know, see if those same graders can't
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get the same grades. I guarantee it's all going to
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be a complete out there for that. So I think
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it's I think it's more of a commentary, not necessarily
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on PSA doing anything, you know, evil or shenanigans. It's
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just that nines and tens should not be so far
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apart from each when it comes to them, because they're
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not very.
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Differct no, and we I know, we talked a little
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bit before hitting record, like, I agree, I agree with
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that you and listen, I've graded cards for thirty years now,
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I've had them next to each other most times, I
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won't say, you know, across the board. Most times the
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difference is very indiscernible between a nine and ten, So
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you're right, and when it comes to I've bought plenty
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of nines and very happy with the amount less I
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had to pay in relation to paying four ten. But
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if that's the case, let's you know, and again this
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is just an opinion here, or not so much a
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quarter of pedce. But if they're purchasing a card they
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were already graded and then reholdering it and with the
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same certain number, just isn't that sort of like it
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just it just feels sort of sleazy.
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Yeah, it does. It looks bad.
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I mean it does. It has the appearance of impropriety.
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But again you could see how the mistakes if there
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is this second layer of review, this unfortunate second layer
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of review, where something can change in between the submitter
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of the card to saying, oh easier what I got? Okay,
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I don't want to deal with them, you know, you
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can buy them back from us or what are the
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proper terminology? And then it turns out that they should
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have been if you wanted to sell them back, they
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should have been sold back for more.
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That looks bad. That looks bad.
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Yeah, the optics are really bad. Well, like, I just like,
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I'm not condoning illegal actions and whatnot. I'm just speaking
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and like like like why are you using the same
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shirt number? Like at that, like you're just yeah, this
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is why we're at where again, I'm not trying to
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say you do that in the first place, but if
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you're doing that, you're using the cert the same CIRT
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cert number. Now what goes from like you're you're just
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like you stepped in it yourself.
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And yeah, I'm unclear as to why there is a
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secondary review. I mean it just seems like, Okay, you've
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had the review for the car that's isn't it.
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Aren't you done? Aren't you done? At that point? I
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mean I could see if somebody's you know.
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In a way, you're throwing yourself under the bus, like
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our graders didn't grade that well, so we're doing it again.
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You're you're saying, what the standards the standard? You prop
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yourself up on your like undercutting yourself if if that's
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the case, so like it'll be interesting. Now are these
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going to court? These are Are these just people screaming
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from the mountaintop?
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Yeah?
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These are these are people just screaming from the mountaintops.
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Because I believe at least the first uh, you know,
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the first person I think he's been made whole or something.
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I think uh PSA has made him right somehow. I
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don't know if there's a confidentiality agreement or something there.
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It was.
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There's some funny tweets out there about it, so I
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think that one's been resolved. H So, you know, I
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don't know if there will be a court case. It's
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It's one of those things that will be difficult to
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show because I think he just got lucky with looking
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at certain numbers later seeing with certain numbers popped up
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with with higher grades. Not many people are gonna do that,
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you know, most people.
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You know, if.
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There's a lot of this, you know that you're the
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hobby lawyer. There's a lot of hobby detectives. Let me
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put this way, there's there's probably more habby detectives than
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heavy lawyers, without a doubt.
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So maybe the the hobby detectives have been We'll see
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what else out there.
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It's time for a quick break, bots, We'll be right back.
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Thanks for sticking with us. Let's return to the show.
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You know, I don't know how much time you want
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to spend on as we can do kind of the
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cliff notes version. I know you've been on a bit,
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you know, and this is not necessary. I don't believe
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I don't know as much about this as as the
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other ones, you know, self disclosure, but the Spiegeles versus
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Golden and the Lebron r PA. Again, I'm going to
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acquiesce to your time here, but we'll kind of close
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on this case, you know, just kind of fill in
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I know a little bit, but in comparison to these
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other cases, not as much.
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And this is this is another case that really interests
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me as a as a trial attorney, because this is
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one of those ones that it will turn on a witness.
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So this case is about a Golden Well. The Spiegels
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consigned a Lebron RPA with Golden auction, and during the auction,
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card Porn and some other people had brought up issued
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the card.
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They alleged that the patch in the card was not authentic.
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Some of these issues had been out there beforehand, but
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nobody really you know, it wasn't to the point of, hey,
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we're not gonna sell the card.
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So the Spiegels, who.
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Are the people that consigned the card with the Goldens,
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they had a letter of I'm gonna call it a
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letter of authenticity from Upper Deck saying that the card
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is legitimate. Well, during the auction itself, the Goldens alleged
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that they talked to a Upper Deck employee and that
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00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:41.000
individual said, hey, I'm the one that wrote the letter.
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That letter actually only authenticated the card, not the patch itself,
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So that way I cannot stand behind the patch.
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And so he says.
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Because of that, Golden says, because of that, I ended
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the The Spiegels, on the other hand, are saying, well,
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this is nonsense because during the course of this case,
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we deposed Upper Deck and Upper Decks still says they
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stand behind the original letter of authenticity. Now they didn't
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do anything else to investigate the card or anything it appears,
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but they're still standing behind the letter of authenticity.
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So the case turns, it's really.
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Going to turn on you know, is you know, not
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only is the card authentic or is the patch of
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the card authentic or not, but when the original upper
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Deck letter was created, was written by this upper Deck employee,
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what did he say was authentic?
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What is you know?
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And what currently is he saying is authentic? And what
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it's Upper Deck saying. So this is an entire case
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that's going to turn on that witness's testimon and that's
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the greatest type of case to not be involved with
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to actually watch because it's gonna be a nerve wrecking case.
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You never know what the other side is going to say.
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But yeah, if.
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They could live stream that case, if they could put
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it live on YouTube, paper.
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Yeah exactly, I mean, really that's what they should put.
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You know, the Goldens and the Spiegels should pay for
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00:16:02.360 --> 00:16:04.879
this trial to be televised, and then they cut the
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00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:08.159
money in half and it'll probably make up for you know,
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there are disputes in the case, but it'll be.
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Some phenomenal I think.
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I'm looking forward to the lawyers on both sides, the
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ones that are going to try and build them up
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00:16:17.080 --> 00:16:18.679
as a witness and the ones that go try and
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00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:19.320
tear him down.
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00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:22.440
It's going to be phenomenal lawyer play. And then so.
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00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:28.279
Where the cases right now is the judges deciding is
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00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:31.759
there sufficient facts in dispute that it should go to trial.
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00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:33.600
That's where we are right now. The judge is getting
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00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:35.559
ready to say are we going to have a trial
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00:16:36.120 --> 00:16:38.639
or not. And I think because there's so many facts
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00:16:38.679 --> 00:16:41.720
that are in dispute, and only the jury can determine
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00:16:42.080 --> 00:16:45.720
credibility of witnesses, and if there's a factual dispute, which
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00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:48.360
side wins, I think this case is ripe to go
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00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:50.519
to the jury. And I really really hope we have
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00:16:50.559 --> 00:16:51.399
a jury trial for this.
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00:16:51.600 --> 00:16:55.399
So Golden ended the auction and then sent the card
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00:16:55.480 --> 00:16:58.799
back to Spiegels, so they they have the card. They're
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00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:03.120
just mad that they are auction didn't go to full term.
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00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:06.160
Correct, And they're also alleging that when the auction, So
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00:17:06.279 --> 00:17:11.920
when the auction ended, Ken posted on Instagram that you know,
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00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:14.839
he's ending the auction, and he thanked card Porn and
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other people for pointing out that there were issues with
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00:17:17.160 --> 00:17:17.559
the card.
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00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:20.079
They were alleging that that act the.
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00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:23.119
Cancelation of the auction, and then the Instagram posts have
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00:17:23.279 --> 00:17:26.559
forever damaged the value of the car. So basically, this card,
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00:17:26.599 --> 00:17:29.480
no matter what, has an asterisk. It's why Mary Bonds
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00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:31.200
and Mark McGuire are not going to get into the
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00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:34.200
Hall of Fame anytime, so they have asterisks. This card
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00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:37.519
has an asterisk. So Goldens needs to pay us the
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00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:39.759
difference in the value. And then the Goldens have a
326
00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:43.039
kind of have a counter lawsuit saying, hey, you knew
327
00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:45.119
there were issues with this card, you didn't tell us
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00:17:45.160 --> 00:17:47.839
about it. We wasted all this time on this auction.
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00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:50.839
You actually owe us money for it. So that's why
330
00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:53.839
I called the case Spiegels versus the Goldens versus this.
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00:17:54.880 --> 00:17:59.000
Yeah, it'll be interesting to see, you know what happens
332
00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:03.240
in the You know, carr Porn had other issues post
333
00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:08.680
that as well. That doesn't bode well for them. But
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00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:12.279
that's a show in itself, so we won't get in.
335
00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:15.559
We won't get into that. But Paul I appreciate I
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00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:20.039
always appreciate you coming on. I always learned something always,
337
00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:24.480
and I feel like I even know more about a
338
00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:27.160
lot of these cases. And again, you know, I sound
339
00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:29.839
like a broken record here, but it's true, right, regardless
340
00:18:29.839 --> 00:18:33.440
of how in the litigation you are or aren't, right,
341
00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:38.240
these are important cases to the hobby for in the
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00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:43.440
moment and for what happens you know, next year, five years,
343
00:18:43.480 --> 00:18:47.920
ten years, twenty years from now. One one last kind
344
00:18:47.960 --> 00:18:52.319
of question. Not a litigation with Fanatics taking over a
345
00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:56.839
majority of the licensing here, now, do you think we'll
346
00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:01.319
see you think that bodes for more gation or not
347
00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:04.279
or not necessarily, just as it is.
348
00:19:04.799 --> 00:19:09.200
I think the bigger you are, the more successful you are,
349
00:19:09.400 --> 00:19:12.000
the bigger of a target you have on you. So
350
00:19:12.119 --> 00:19:13.920
it's just, you know, it's just how the game is played.
351
00:19:13.960 --> 00:19:17.160
So I hope Fanatics is continually and seeing their litigation
352
00:19:17.319 --> 00:19:20.920
department's budget because they're they're just gonna need it because
353
00:19:20.920 --> 00:19:24.000
no matter what when, Because you know, I mean training cards.
354
00:19:24.039 --> 00:19:27.680
The value of the market for training cards has just skyroll.
355
00:19:27.799 --> 00:19:30.720
It keeps going up. There's so much money involved. When
356
00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:33.440
you have this much money involved, some people are going
357
00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:35.880
to just naturally be hurt. They're gonna look for somebody
358
00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:39.039
to blame, and Fanatics has the biggest dollar sign attached,
359
00:19:39.240 --> 00:19:42.039
so I think, uh, yeah, whoever was in charge of everything,
360
00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:44.319
if this was Panini, you could see them getting forward.
361
00:19:44.359 --> 00:19:46.680
But just just because they're the biggest ones out there,
362
00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:50.240
if whatever goes wrong, oh it's Fanatics.
363
00:19:49.880 --> 00:19:50.960
Fault, we should bring a loss.
364
00:19:51.640 --> 00:19:55.440
So yeah, well listen, well we won't wait as long
365
00:19:55.559 --> 00:19:59.000
between having you on, and at this rate with court cases,
366
00:19:59.240 --> 00:20:01.960
we probably wouldn't be able to uh wait that long
367
00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:06.160
even if we wanted to again. Uh, you know, I'll
368
00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:10.680
put Paul's social media handles in the show notes. He
369
00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:13.680
breaks this. You know, it's one thing to hear it, uh,
370
00:20:13.720 --> 00:20:16.440
you know, verbally, but he does a great job even
371
00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:20.720
on social media, uh, breaking it down and in terms
372
00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:24.839
that layman like myself can understand, uh and get the
373
00:20:24.920 --> 00:20:27.960
gist of what's at stake and what's going on, and
374
00:20:27.960 --> 00:20:31.240
how how this tends to work, and the fact that
375
00:20:31.279 --> 00:20:34.440
you're you're in that profess and you know how this
376
00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:38.039
works or what options each side may have or not
377
00:20:38.200 --> 00:20:41.400
have any long I think that's uh, that's a great
378
00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:45.400
aspect and a great thing you bring Uh to that.
379
00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:49.759
And so if you're not following Paul already, uh go
380
00:20:49.839 --> 00:20:53.119
do that especially be like this sort of thing as
381
00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:57.559
I do. Uh. And again I'm very appreciate Paul. You
382
00:20:57.559 --> 00:21:00.599
you're sharing some of those insight and knowledge and uh
383
00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:03.519
uh you know, letting people know what's what's going on
384
00:21:04.039 --> 00:21:07.519
sort of behind closed doors, if you will, of the hobby,
385
00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:11.400
not on the show floor necessarily, but in the back rooms.
386
00:21:11.839 --> 00:21:14.000
As I say, I always give. I always give the
387
00:21:14.039 --> 00:21:17.039
guests kind of the last word. Give out those social
388
00:21:17.079 --> 00:21:20.240
medias too for those listening or anything else you want
389
00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:20.640
to share.
390
00:21:20.759 --> 00:21:23.480
Go sure, yeah no, And you know it's every day
391
00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:26.519
before I start my work, I check all the dockets
392
00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:28.920
that are out there for the hobby, and I always
393
00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:31.880
tweet about it. I try to make it easily understandable
394
00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:33.519
and I at least try to make it funny. So
395
00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:39.319
if you're if you're on the twitters, I'm at Paul underscore, lescou.
396
00:21:38.599 --> 00:21:39.319
Give me a follow.
397
00:21:39.559 --> 00:21:42.960
Uh hopefully you know, learn something new, but at a minimum,
398
00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:44.720
you'll see lawyers in a different life.
399
00:21:44.799 --> 00:21:48.000
Yeah, no doubt, no doubt. And uh uh so there
400
00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:50.000
you go. Thanks Paul, as always.
401
00:21:50.039 --> 00:21:51.559
Thanks John for having me on This is fun.
402
00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:55.759
That wraps up our legal series with Paul LESCo. Always
403
00:21:55.759 --> 00:21:59.079
great having them money breaks it down in ways that
404
00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:03.240
you know everybody can understand rather than having to speak
405
00:22:03.400 --> 00:22:05.880
legal ease. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but
406
00:22:06.279 --> 00:22:11.279
you know, not everyone does. And again, whether these cases
407
00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:15.799
you know you're halfway interested or not, right, they do
408
00:22:15.880 --> 00:22:19.559
have a bear a direct bearing on what the future
409
00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:23.200
of the hobby might entail, and I think they were
410
00:22:23.319 --> 00:22:26.599
very important. I did them in foreign installments just to
411
00:22:26.680 --> 00:22:30.880
keep the length short. So even if it wasn't your
412
00:22:30.920 --> 00:22:34.000
cup of tea at the length that each episode was,
413
00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:36.920
I think it made it more consumable. Let me know
414
00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:40.400
what you think. We're gonna have Paul back on somewhere
415
00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:44.599
down the line, maybe with some new cases and updates.
416
00:22:45.079 --> 00:22:48.759
And you know, I joked with him when I was younger,
417
00:22:48.759 --> 00:22:50.359
I wanted to be a lawyer, and then I heard
418
00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:52.079
how long you got to go to school for it
419
00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:55.880
and so much for that. So you get me on
420
00:22:56.079 --> 00:22:59.640
this podcast instead, and my kids get me in the
421
00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:04.160
class room, uh instead, But I'll jogg and decide. Let
422
00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:07.039
me know what you thought of the four installments and
423
00:23:08.359 --> 00:23:11.200
what you thought of it, and uh, you know, we'll
424
00:23:11.240 --> 00:23:14.400
do them again down the line, uh somewhere. So let's
425
00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:17.920
let's get to the Hobby's the People Announcer of the
426
00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:20.599
Week and wrap up this week's episode.
427
00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:25.599
Time for our Hobby is the People Announcer of the Week.
428
00:23:28.720 --> 00:23:33.119
So everyone, it's Brodie the Kid. Always remember the Hobby
429
00:23:33.519 --> 00:23:35.279
is the People peace out.
430
00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:38.039
If you'd like to be the Hobby is the People
431
00:23:38.119 --> 00:23:41.240
Announcer of the Week to a one four MP three
432
00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:45.519
file and send it to Sportscard Nation PC at gmail
433
00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:47.559
dot com.
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