Jan. 2, 2026

Card Companies suing each other w/"The Hobby Lawyer" Paul Lesko E369

Card Companies suing each other w/"The Hobby Lawyer" Paul Lesko E369
Apple Podcasts podcast player badge
Spotify podcast player badge
RSS Feed podcast player badge
PocketCasts podcast player badge
Overcast podcast player badge
Castro podcast player badge
Apple Podcasts podcast player iconSpotify podcast player iconRSS Feed podcast player iconPocketCasts podcast player iconOvercast podcast player iconCastro podcast player icon

"The Hobby Lawyer" Paul Lesko is back. 

 

Today's Hobby Court Cases:

Numerous card companies suing each other.  


Paul joins us to discuss some interesting hobby related court cases.  


Follow us on Social Media: 


Website:


https://www.sportscardnationpo....com 


https://linktr.ee/Sportscardna...


Merch shop:


https://sports-card-nation.pri...


 


To eliminate pre & post-roll ads


https://www.spreaker.com/podca...

WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:07.639
Sports Guardinations, Hobbies, the People, Wheely News and Interviews. It's

2
00:00:07.719 --> 00:00:14.199
your number one soul, sports Garnation Hobby is the people.

3
00:00:17.000 --> 00:00:18.440
Spawns Guarnation.

4
00:00:20.359 --> 00:00:24.760
What is up? Everybody? Welcome to episode three sixty nine

5
00:00:25.079 --> 00:00:29.800
of Sports Cardination. Hope your holiday is a good one

6
00:00:29.960 --> 00:00:33.039
and your new year is off to a great start.

7
00:00:33.439 --> 00:00:36.759
This is part three in our four part series with

8
00:00:37.200 --> 00:00:42.240
attorney Paul LESCo discussing hobby litigation cases, and Paul does

9
00:00:42.280 --> 00:00:45.000
a great job of breaking it down the nuts and

10
00:00:45.039 --> 00:00:48.679
bolts of it, make it easy, making it easy for

11
00:00:48.759 --> 00:00:52.159
us to consume and understand. You don't have to listen

12
00:00:52.200 --> 00:00:55.359
to them necessarily in order, so if you missed one

13
00:00:55.439 --> 00:00:59.000
or two you can go back and catch those. They

14
00:00:59.240 --> 00:01:02.719
one doesn't I kind of break them up where we're

15
00:01:02.719 --> 00:01:07.239
not talking about the same case on two different episodes,

16
00:01:07.280 --> 00:01:09.760
So even if you missed the first two that's being

17
00:01:09.840 --> 00:01:13.319
part three, you can kind of go back and check

18
00:01:13.359 --> 00:01:15.920
it out. You don't have to listen to him in order.

19
00:01:15.959 --> 00:01:20.439
And next week's are part four or four, concluding the

20
00:01:20.560 --> 00:01:23.280
series up and as long as Paul come on, I

21
00:01:23.359 --> 00:01:25.879
think we'll have him on every so up often kind

22
00:01:25.879 --> 00:01:30.439
of the update, what's going on? In the legal side

23
00:01:30.599 --> 00:01:34.480
of the hobby if you will, so as always want

24
00:01:34.519 --> 00:01:39.799
to thank our sponsors, Iron Sports, Cards, Sports Collectors, Digest,

25
00:01:39.920 --> 00:01:43.959
Hobby Hotline, and upper that. So with that being said,

26
00:01:44.200 --> 00:01:48.280
let's get the show started. This is the part three

27
00:01:48.680 --> 00:01:52.599
of our four part series with Paul LESCo, and we're

28
00:01:52.640 --> 00:01:56.120
gonna start out. I'm gonna ask him about when a

29
00:01:56.400 --> 00:02:00.680
company or person loses, you know, a judgment in a

30
00:02:00.760 --> 00:02:03.599
court case where they have to pay money, and if

31
00:02:03.680 --> 00:02:07.159
they don't have money, if they're wage you know, if

32
00:02:07.159 --> 00:02:10.479
it's garnished or it's automatically taken out. So that's where

33
00:02:10.479 --> 00:02:16.319
we start, and then we go into other hobby litigation cases.

34
00:02:16.360 --> 00:02:20.199
I hope you enjoy this series, and there's one more

35
00:02:20.759 --> 00:02:25.039
next week as well. Can there's no garnishing of like

36
00:02:25.159 --> 00:02:28.479
future income or anything like that, Like you you have

37
00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:31.919
to pay restitution, like you have twenty years to pay

38
00:02:32.479 --> 00:02:34.919
twenty thousand dollars. I'm just making up number.

39
00:02:35.000 --> 00:02:38.919
You know, Normally a judge wants payment instantaneously, so when

40
00:02:38.919 --> 00:02:42.159
it comes to you know, if if in this case,

41
00:02:42.199 --> 00:02:46.159
and you know, so, we actually changes the one of

42
00:02:46.159 --> 00:02:47.520
the other cases we want to talk about, and we

43
00:02:47.520 --> 00:02:48.039
can talk.

44
00:02:47.879 --> 00:02:50.080
About it in this way, yeah, go ahead, go ahead. Yeah.

45
00:02:50.080 --> 00:02:54.360
So so the there's been another long running lawsuit.

46
00:02:54.759 --> 00:02:56.000
This is the Lorcanic Cake.

47
00:02:56.199 --> 00:03:00.719
This is Upper Deck versus Ravensburger, Robinsburger and Ryan Miller.

48
00:03:00.919 --> 00:03:04.159
And basically this is a case that was about Ryan

49
00:03:04.199 --> 00:03:07.919
Miller used to be a consultant for Upper Deck working

50
00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:10.199
on a brand new tea that Upper Deck was was

51
00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:14.800
going to release. Ryan Miller left and went to Ravensburger.

52
00:03:14.919 --> 00:03:19.000
Robinsburger then released Lorcana, which is a Disney based trading

53
00:03:19.039 --> 00:03:23.120
card game. Upper Deck saw the rules for Lorcana and

54
00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:25.879
they said, hey, those are our rules.

55
00:03:25.879 --> 00:03:27.719
That's the rules for the game that we were working on.

56
00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:30.560
We think he stole our trade secrets, brought him over

57
00:03:30.560 --> 00:03:33.879
to Robinsburger, came out with a Lorcana game, and now

58
00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:37.319
we're gonna look like we're copying Lorcana. So Upper Decks

59
00:03:37.400 --> 00:03:41.319
sued Ravensburger over the over the Locana game. And this

60
00:03:41.439 --> 00:03:44.680
lawsuit's gone on for three three years. It's been going

61
00:03:44.719 --> 00:03:47.719
on forever. So we finally were getting ready to have

62
00:03:47.759 --> 00:03:50.680
a trial, and right before the trial, one of the

63
00:03:50.719 --> 00:03:54.560
major claims was a copyright infringement claim. Basically, Upper Decks

64
00:03:54.599 --> 00:03:58.280
sued Robinsburger saying you infringed our copyrights in the game.

65
00:03:58.599 --> 00:04:03.560
They sued Ryan Miller saying, hey, you breached your NDAs

66
00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:06.800
to us. You gave confidential information to her side. So

67
00:04:06.879 --> 00:04:10.240
the court held that no, there was no copyright infringement

68
00:04:10.280 --> 00:04:13.800
because you cannot copyright game mechanic and that's really what

69
00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:17.720
you copyright here. None of Upper Deeck's game had Disney characters.

70
00:04:18.399 --> 00:04:20.120
If anything that you're suing on it has to do

71
00:04:20.120 --> 00:04:23.720
with how to the games, and you cannot copyright game mechanics.

72
00:04:23.839 --> 00:04:26.920
It's just basic law that's out there. So right before trial,

73
00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:30.680
Robinsberger got released. Ryan Miller, however, was still in the case,

74
00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:32.319
but he was only in the case for a breach

75
00:04:32.319 --> 00:04:35.120
of contract. And you know, looking at the briefing, it

76
00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:38.199
was basically, at most Upper Deck you can get thirty

77
00:04:38.279 --> 00:04:41.079
nine thousand dollars from him, because that's all you paid

78
00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:44.120
him while he worked for you. So Ryan Miller said,

79
00:04:44.120 --> 00:04:46.319
you know what, it's not worth going to trial. I

80
00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:49.040
will let you get a judgment against me, and he

81
00:04:49.079 --> 00:04:52.759
offered what's called an author of judgment, saying, hey, I'll

82
00:04:52.800 --> 00:04:54.920
pay you the full amount you're asking thirty or I'll

83
00:04:54.959 --> 00:04:57.000
pay you thirty nine thousand dollars. This would be all

84
00:04:57.040 --> 00:04:58.759
that you can get and we don't have to go

85
00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:02.160
to trial. And upper Deck accepted case over. We didn't

86
00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:05.480
have a trial. But it's not because Robinsburger then comes

87
00:05:05.519 --> 00:05:09.000
back and says, hey, upper Deck fought this case against us.

88
00:05:08.800 --> 00:05:12.759
For three years. This was we had twelve different attorneys,

89
00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:15.040
we had experts, we had all these depositions, we had

90
00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:18.000
three point four million dollars of an attorneys.

91
00:05:18.040 --> 00:05:21.199
And because we think this case had no basis, because

92
00:05:21.240 --> 00:05:25.279
you can't copyright game mechanics and because copyright allows you

93
00:05:25.360 --> 00:05:28.399
to fee shi win and is egregious, well, we want

94
00:05:28.480 --> 00:05:32.120
upper Deck now to pay us three point four million dollars,

95
00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:34.959
which is you know, it's it sounds crazy, but that's

96
00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:38.920
probably an accurate amount for attorneys for a copyright case.

97
00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:42.199
But that just shows how a plaintiff's case can go wrong.

98
00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:45.959
Because upper Deck brought the lawsuit. Upper Deck was the plaintiff.

99
00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:49.319
Upper Deck was suing for I can't remember what it was.

100
00:05:49.360 --> 00:05:51.759
If it twenty twenty five million dollars, you know, however

101
00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:53.920
much money it was, it could have been more than that.

102
00:05:54.360 --> 00:05:57.399
And now they may end up paying three point four

103
00:05:57.480 --> 00:05:59.920
million dollars or something around there an attorney.

104
00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:03.839
If the court agrees with Robins vers so so. So

105
00:06:03.879 --> 00:06:05.600
to bring it back to what we were talking about.

106
00:06:05.839 --> 00:06:09.879
So why that's relevant is because if the judge says,

107
00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:13.160
upper deck, you O three point four million dollars that's

108
00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:16.160
due today. You know that's due within the like the

109
00:06:16.399 --> 00:06:18.639
next week. You have to pay it. And now you

110
00:06:18.639 --> 00:06:22.240
can appeal. And if you appeal it, that's fine, we'll

111
00:06:22.279 --> 00:06:24.800
put it in the bank. We'll let it accrue interest.

112
00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:26.959
But you're still paying it just to the bank and

113
00:06:26.959 --> 00:06:27.800
we'll hold on to it.

114
00:06:27.959 --> 00:06:29.000
You're on mute.

115
00:06:29.319 --> 00:06:32.639
Yeah, even if you appeal, you still have to pay.

116
00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:36.360
It just sort of goes into like a middleman fund.

117
00:06:36.399 --> 00:06:38.560
Sure, yeah, you have to post. You have to post

118
00:06:38.600 --> 00:06:39.000
a bond.

119
00:06:39.360 --> 00:06:43.680
Uh So just so just appealing does it delay payment?

120
00:06:44.120 --> 00:06:46.639
Like you still have to pay, just doesn't go to

121
00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:50.199
the winner of the case yet correct the appeal. Wow,

122
00:06:50.240 --> 00:06:52.360
So like you're not off the hook in terms of

123
00:06:52.399 --> 00:06:55.199
financial you still got to cough up to dough. No.

124
00:06:55.319 --> 00:06:57.879
You typically only will see like a garnishment and say

125
00:06:58.079 --> 00:07:02.079
like uh, in a divorce, payments are due automatically on

126
00:07:02.120 --> 00:07:05.759
a on a schedule, and maybe the you know, individual

127
00:07:05.800 --> 00:07:08.439
who needs to be garnished is not the most you know,

128
00:07:08.720 --> 00:07:11.000
does not pay on time all it. Sometimes we'll see

129
00:07:11.000 --> 00:07:14.920
it in maybe a bankruptcy where the plaintiff wants to

130
00:07:15.279 --> 00:07:17.360
or maybe doesn't want to. The court tells the plaintiff

131
00:07:17.519 --> 00:07:20.360
that he has to make these debts as whole as possible.

132
00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:21.399
So what we're gonna do is.

133
00:07:21.319 --> 00:07:23.120
We're gonna garnish your paycheck for that.

134
00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:26.079
However, typically when a case wins, if it's not bankruptcy

135
00:07:26.120 --> 00:07:28.360
or if it's not like a family law matter like that.

136
00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:31.120
The money is due like almost yeah.

137
00:07:31.160 --> 00:07:33.920
Yeah, see I learned something right there, Paul. So let

138
00:07:33.920 --> 00:07:37.079
me ask you going back to this upper Deck versus

139
00:07:37.560 --> 00:07:41.040
robins Burger case. Can upper Deck point to the fact

140
00:07:41.040 --> 00:07:44.079
that Ryan Miller in a sense pleaded sort of no

141
00:07:44.279 --> 00:07:48.480
contest the way like he did to say, well, that's

142
00:07:48.519 --> 00:07:51.839
why we shouldn't have to pay. Uh, you know, we

143
00:07:52.079 --> 00:07:55.319
really kind of won that case in a sense, why

144
00:07:55.360 --> 00:07:56.360
do we have to pay?

145
00:07:56.720 --> 00:07:57.160
We won?

146
00:07:57.560 --> 00:07:57.680
Why?

147
00:07:57.959 --> 00:08:00.000
That's exactly you know, and that's exactly what they're doing.

148
00:08:00.439 --> 00:08:04.240
So upper Deck is saying, these two you know, you're

149
00:08:04.319 --> 00:08:06.439
you're you know robins Berger, you're trying to say there's

150
00:08:06.439 --> 00:08:07.160
two cases.

151
00:08:07.199 --> 00:08:07.600
They're not.

152
00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:11.879
These cases are so intertwined and regardless as to whether

153
00:08:12.120 --> 00:08:14.680
that we only paid thirty nine thousand dollars, this was

154
00:08:14.720 --> 00:08:19.040
a complex contract action that involved intellectual property. So the

155
00:08:19.079 --> 00:08:20.920
analysis is that we need to do for this, were

156
00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:24.839
the same for this. You can't cut the cases in half. Robinsberger,

157
00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:26.920
on the other hand, is saying, no, they're completely different.

158
00:08:27.079 --> 00:08:30.480
That was the breach of contract for allegedly sharing something

159
00:08:30.519 --> 00:08:33.720
he shouldn't have shared. This is a copyright infringement case

160
00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:36.200
having into the game. So it'll it'll really turn on

161
00:08:36.679 --> 00:08:38.840
what does the judge do. Does he does she view

162
00:08:38.879 --> 00:08:42.120
the cases as completely intertwined, or does she think that,

163
00:08:42.360 --> 00:08:44.919
you know, these are separable cases, and if they're separable,

164
00:08:44.960 --> 00:08:47.120
maybe some of the attorneys should be allocated to this

165
00:08:47.159 --> 00:08:49.840
and some of the attorneys' it's it's fascinating and I

166
00:08:49.840 --> 00:08:52.759
can't wait to see. We haven't seen Upper Deck's response

167
00:08:52.879 --> 00:08:54.960
yet to the fees, so I'm looking forward to seeing

168
00:08:55.039 --> 00:08:57.639
that and then definitely looking forward to seeing how the judge.

169
00:08:57.759 --> 00:09:01.519
What happens if someone doesn't want either doesn't pay it,

170
00:09:01.679 --> 00:09:04.240
or doesn't have the money to pay. Even in an

171
00:09:04.320 --> 00:09:08.840
Upper decks case. Let's say they're like whatever reason they're

172
00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:13.120
criving poverty, or we we lost money the last three years,

173
00:09:13.159 --> 00:09:16.879
so we don't we don't have that capital to pay.

174
00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:21.480
Like what happens legality wise when that occurs?

175
00:09:21.480 --> 00:09:23.519
If the so you.

176
00:09:23.519 --> 00:09:25.759
Really have you know, there's basically two options, you know,

177
00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:28.639
because when when a judge rules or there's a judgment

178
00:09:28.679 --> 00:09:31.240
out there, if you don't pay, you're in contempt of

179
00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:33.279
the court ordered you to do something.

180
00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:35.480
You have to do something. So you can try to.

181
00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:38.120
File a motion with the court and explain hardship or

182
00:09:38.399 --> 00:09:40.879
you know, explain what's going on, but invariably what the

183
00:09:40.879 --> 00:09:43.840
court will say, Okay, go to bankruptcy court. You need

184
00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:46.919
to open up a bankruptcy matter, get a trustee involved,

185
00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:49.440
and let the trustee determine how much money do you

186
00:09:49.519 --> 00:09:50.200
actually have and.

187
00:09:50.159 --> 00:09:51.039
How much you can pay.

188
00:09:51.200 --> 00:09:53.679
Because there's only so much you can trust the other

189
00:09:53.759 --> 00:09:57.480
side about. They'll they'll want an entirely new matter opened up.

190
00:09:57.679 --> 00:09:59.960
Well, if you couldn't jud I was gonna say, couldn't

191
00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:02.080
judge say I want to see your books or open

192
00:10:02.159 --> 00:10:05.399
your books, like you can say you're broke, so I need.

193
00:10:05.559 --> 00:10:08.960
Yeah, judges are yeah, they're typically so busy they don't

194
00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:11.320
they don't do that. So typically the judges will just

195
00:10:11.399 --> 00:10:12.840
say I want the other side is to show me

196
00:10:12.879 --> 00:10:15.159
what's going on in a bankruptcy a court. When you

197
00:10:15.200 --> 00:10:18.679
have a bankruptcy trustee, they are more aggressive. They will

198
00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:20.759
actually ask for things, they will look for things. It

199
00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:22.759
is their job to dig into it. But it takes

200
00:10:22.759 --> 00:10:25.519
a long time. A normal judge won't have time to

201
00:10:25.600 --> 00:10:28.240
go through all that. That's why they probably require a

202
00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:31.559
completely separate bankruptcy matter to be open. So and just

203
00:10:31.759 --> 00:10:33.799
just to be clear, you know, we're we're not saying

204
00:10:33.799 --> 00:10:35.720
that upper Deck can't pay. If they have to pay

205
00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:37.440
three point four million dollars, we can't say that they

206
00:10:37.480 --> 00:10:40.679
would go into bankruptcy. I fully imagine if there is

207
00:10:40.879 --> 00:10:43.879
a you know, bad judgment against upper Deck, it could

208
00:10:43.879 --> 00:10:45.919
post the bond while it fights the peal.

209
00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:47.159
And it has.

210
00:10:47.080 --> 00:10:49.919
Already said that it's appealing the case itself. It'll just

211
00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:51.399
be one more issue to go upon a people.

212
00:10:51.480 --> 00:10:54.399
Yeah that it is interesting now and now a judge

213
00:10:54.399 --> 00:10:57.679
has to determine was this one case everything or was

214
00:10:57.759 --> 00:11:01.240
this one case actually two cases? And if that's the ruling,

215
00:11:01.679 --> 00:11:06.960
we're not done as leek Horso would say, not so fast,

216
00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:11.840
my friend, exactly right, exactly so, yeah, that'll be that'll

217
00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:15.159
be interesting to see how that winds up.

218
00:11:15.639 --> 00:11:18.679
It's time for a quick break. Bots will be right fag.

219
00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:24.159
Iron Sports Cards is your number one source for all

220
00:11:24.200 --> 00:11:27.559
your PSA and other grading submissions. Their elite status improves

221
00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:30.799
turnaround times. Heck, they even provide the card savers. Their

222
00:11:30.840 --> 00:11:33.879
chap rooms provide updates on all your submissions. They also

223
00:11:33.919 --> 00:11:36.879
offer wax options and single cards to cover all the bases.

224
00:11:37.159 --> 00:11:39.519
Check them out on Facebook at Iron Sports Cards Group

225
00:11:39.720 --> 00:11:42.279
or on the web at Iron Sportscards dot com, or

226
00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:45.240
even give them a call at one eight seven seven

227
00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:48.639
I ro o n p SA. Rob's got you covered.

228
00:11:52.240 --> 00:11:55.480
Sports Comnation has resons.

229
00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:02.039
Kind of rolling right into you. Our next case talking

230
00:12:02.080 --> 00:12:07.200
about two hobby companies manufacturers right litigation. This one a

231
00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:11.039
little bit more recent, not that the others aren't recent reason,

232
00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:13.840
but this one I think, uh even more recent with

233
00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:18.279
the wild Card versus Panini, and I'll kind of start

234
00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:21.440
off and you can kind of correct my errors if

235
00:12:21.480 --> 00:12:26.240
you will, But wild Card suing Panini for anti trust,

236
00:12:26.279 --> 00:12:30.799
basically saying Panini went to distributors and threatened them, Hey, like,

237
00:12:30.840 --> 00:12:33.879
if you want to carry our products and get allocation

238
00:12:34.120 --> 00:12:38.440
from us, you'll turn turn a cold shoulder to to

239
00:12:38.600 --> 00:12:44.240
wild Card and not carry uh theirs and dirty you know,

240
00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:48.039
dirty tactics if true, and uh, but not the first

241
00:12:48.039 --> 00:12:53.799
time that whatever happened, uh in the history of the world. Uh,

242
00:12:53.840 --> 00:12:54.879
how did I describe it?

243
00:12:55.480 --> 00:12:56.679
I think I think you nailed it.

244
00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:00.759
I mean, you really did, because it's the It's kind

245
00:13:00.759 --> 00:13:03.000
of funny because you know, in the background, what we

246
00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:07.000
have going on is Panine's anti trust lawsuit against Fanatics

247
00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:10.840
that's been ongoing for a while right now, where Panine's

248
00:13:10.879 --> 00:13:15.679
basically saying, hey, we had the NBA products, we have

249
00:13:15.759 --> 00:13:19.440
the NFL products, and now we've lost them both. And

250
00:13:19.799 --> 00:13:23.919
Fanatics has too many licenses. They have MLB, they have NBA,

251
00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:27.320
they have NFL they have that's too many and there

252
00:13:27.399 --> 00:13:31.320
are licenses. I'm oversimplifying, but that's basically what's going on there.

253
00:13:31.559 --> 00:13:34.120
So jump to what happened, and I think it was

254
00:13:34.120 --> 00:13:39.159
filed in early November, is when Wildcard filed against Panini,

255
00:13:39.399 --> 00:13:43.559
basically saying, hey, back when you had the NFL license,

256
00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:46.679
back when you had the NBA license, we were trying

257
00:13:46.679 --> 00:13:49.320
to compete against. You were the big dog that was

258
00:13:49.360 --> 00:13:51.919
out there. You were the one that the distributors were

259
00:13:51.919 --> 00:13:56.120
listening to. And because you made the alleged threat that

260
00:13:56.159 --> 00:13:59.000
if you do business with wild Card, you know, bad

261
00:13:59.000 --> 00:13:59.759
things will happen.

262
00:13:59.799 --> 00:14:01.399
You know, don't do business with them or else. I

263
00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:02.240
don't run the.

264
00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:05.080
Exact language, but it was something along those lines that

265
00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:06.519
within like a.

266
00:14:06.559 --> 00:14:10.519
Three day period, we lost four distributors. Distributors, we were.

267
00:14:10.360 --> 00:14:13.120
Already doing this and the only thing that changed in

268
00:14:13.159 --> 00:14:16.919
between now and then was you had a conference with

269
00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:20.159
the distributors. We alleged these things were said, and then

270
00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:22.320
a few weeks later, within this you know.

271
00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:24.600
Three or four day period, we lost four distries.

272
00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:28.600
So it's basically, Panini, you had market power and you

273
00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:32.039
misused your market power, which is funny because that's what

274
00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:35.919
the Panini is saying the fanatics, fanatics, you now have

275
00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:39.840
market power, but you misused it and that's what hurt us.

276
00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:42.279
So it's it's just fascinating that you normally don't have

277
00:14:42.320 --> 00:14:47.240
two anti trust lawsuits ongoing for the same area at

278
00:14:47.240 --> 00:14:47.879
the same time.

279
00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:49.159
So it's a fun.

280
00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:50.879
One and I think it's gonna be a tricky one

281
00:14:50.919 --> 00:14:53.399
for Panini because you have to be very careful to

282
00:14:53.480 --> 00:14:57.639
not have inconsistent position between both cases. You know, if

283
00:14:57.679 --> 00:15:00.840
you're saying fanatics did something and it's bad and whoops,

284
00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:03.440
we did the same thing here, well, that looks like

285
00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:05.480
it's an admission that you did something. The way that

286
00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:08.679
these two cases interplay between themselves is it's gonna be fascinating.

287
00:15:08.759 --> 00:15:11.240
It's like the last scene in Anchorman when all the

288
00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:14.159
Anchormen are like just trying to kill each other and

289
00:15:15.320 --> 00:15:16.480
you know, machetes.

290
00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:17.080
Yeah.

291
00:15:17.159 --> 00:15:20.480
I would tell me if if this is correct, Paul, Like,

292
00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:24.759
if if Wildcard is bringing this case to court right

293
00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:28.279
in alleging this, it's gotta be more than To me,

294
00:15:28.519 --> 00:15:31.559
I would think it's more than Hey, you had these

295
00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:35.399
these meetings and then this happened. I gotta think somebody

296
00:15:35.519 --> 00:15:38.840
went to Wildcard and said, hey, this is what Like,

297
00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:40.919
there's got to be more than that. I think someone

298
00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:44.320
had to like spill the tea, right that so and

299
00:15:44.360 --> 00:15:49.200
so did this and said this to us. You know this, right,

300
00:15:49.559 --> 00:15:50.519
I would think so.

301
00:15:50.759 --> 00:15:55.279
Yeah, because they because we don't get those specifics in

302
00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:58.159
the complaint, and you don't need those specifics at the complaint,

303
00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:01.440
but they do allege that there was a distributor conference,

304
00:16:01.559 --> 00:16:05.559
and at this distributor conference, somebody from Panini said, so

305
00:16:06.039 --> 00:16:09.440
we you know, it sounds like I doubt Wildcard was there,

306
00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:12.240
So it sounds like somebody, Yeah, somebody who was at

307
00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:17.240
that distributor conference told Wildcard what happened. As the case progresses,

308
00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:19.399
maybe we'll find out who they are. You know, who

309
00:16:19.399 --> 00:16:22.480
they are, what they said, and were there other instances

310
00:16:22.519 --> 00:16:25.320
of this. So we'll just have to wait till the

311
00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:29.919
case develops. But we had a filing in the Panini

312
00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:32.559
versus Fanatics matter, and it has to do with discovery.

313
00:16:32.759 --> 00:16:34.039
It's a boring filing.

314
00:16:34.279 --> 00:16:38.240
But in their Panini does say that they allege the

315
00:16:38.279 --> 00:16:41.799
Wildcard case is a frivolous loss. They say there's no

316
00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:44.480
merit to it and we're gonna win that one going away.

317
00:16:44.600 --> 00:16:47.600
So I'm looking for I'm looking forward to seeing what

318
00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:50.919
Panini's response is in court to the lassit. We haven't

319
00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:54.080
seen that one yet. Panini just got served. They we

320
00:16:54.159 --> 00:16:57.360
probably won't see their response for maybe forty five days.

321
00:16:57.360 --> 00:16:58.399
Sixty days you.

322
00:16:58.360 --> 00:17:00.759
Normally get a little bit more extra time for antitrust case.

323
00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:03.279
But it will be fascinating to see what they respond.

324
00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:04.119
And I guarantee.

325
00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:06.359
It's going to be a motion to dismiss saying the

326
00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:08.559
wild Card case has no merit, and I think it'll

327
00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:09.200
be fun reading.

328
00:17:09.319 --> 00:17:13.920
Whenever case gets resolved first will have any kind of

329
00:17:13.960 --> 00:17:16.880
bearing on the other one. If it's still that one's

330
00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:17.759
still going on.

331
00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:20.880
Well, I think whichever case gets resolved first, it'll be

332
00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:24.799
the Wildcard case, because the Fanatics case, as complicated as that,

333
00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:26.720
that's going to be going until twenty twenty eight. I

334
00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:29.799
mean there are we got at least three more years

335
00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:30.079
on that.

336
00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:31.200
Anti trust cases.

337
00:17:31.240 --> 00:17:34.680
They basically involved almost almost all the document you have,

338
00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:37.720
because it has to do with damages, it has to

339
00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:40.160
do with your licenses, it has to do products. This

340
00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:43.559
case has to do with manufacturing. I mean it's not

341
00:17:43.640 --> 00:17:46.640
just for Fanatic side, but also from East side too,

342
00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:50.119
So there's huge volumes of documents that are going back

343
00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:52.279
and forth. But then also you have to have a

344
00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:54.279
lot of witnesses that you're going to be talking to,

345
00:17:54.759 --> 00:17:57.559
and then you have to have experts, and the experts

346
00:17:57.559 --> 00:18:01.640
in anti trust cases are so expensive and they take

347
00:18:01.720 --> 00:18:04.640
so long to do their stuff, so that case is

348
00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:08.279
gonna take a long time. The wild Card case that's

349
00:18:08.680 --> 00:18:12.279
very focused it's saying, Panini, you have market power. We

350
00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:15.599
think you know, according to the what you have filed

351
00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:18.359
in the Fanatics case that you're admitting you have market power.

352
00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:20.160
You were the marketing. So we don't really need to

353
00:18:20.200 --> 00:18:20.839
go into that.

354
00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:23.079
All we need to go into is what was said

355
00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:26.000
at the distributor meeting, what was said to the distributors,

356
00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:28.319
and why did the distributors actually leave?

357
00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:30.519
And so I think that's a much simpler case.

358
00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:33.720
So I could see the wild Card case, even though

359
00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:36.839
it was filed two years later and two years afterwards,

360
00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:40.559
it could end itself in probably if it goes all

361
00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:43.079
the way, probably two years. That's probably only a two

362
00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:45.799
year case. So even though it was later filed, it

363
00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:49.119
could take two years. And I guarantee Fanatics is going

364
00:18:49.119 --> 00:18:52.680
to be watching that case, and anytime Panini slips up

365
00:18:52.680 --> 00:18:55.160
in that case, or anytime there's good evidence, you know,

366
00:18:55.480 --> 00:18:55.759
all their.

367
00:18:55.759 --> 00:18:57.640
Lawyers are jotting it down and like we're gonna bring

368
00:18:57.720 --> 00:18:58.480
this in new ar case.

369
00:18:58.559 --> 00:19:00.880
Well, I was gonna ask you that could a Panini

370
00:19:01.039 --> 00:19:04.240
loss in the wild Card case actually help them in

371
00:19:04.279 --> 00:19:07.480
their case against Fanatics? In other words, it would it's

372
00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:11.200
like losing losing a battle to win the war to

373
00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:13.880
use an old you know, military.

374
00:19:13.720 --> 00:19:16.599
And that's that that could that could be you know,

375
00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:18.799
I could be a way to do it too, because

376
00:19:18.839 --> 00:19:21.880
they could in essence have something that said, you know,

377
00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:25.000
like for fanatics, I mean, because one of the big

378
00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:29.079
fights in a anti trust case is what is the market?

379
00:19:29.319 --> 00:19:31.559
You know, because you need to have a specific definition

380
00:19:31.640 --> 00:19:34.680
of what is the market in which you are the monopoly.

381
00:19:34.839 --> 00:19:38.079
So and that's that's one of the complex things about

382
00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:42.319
the Panine fanatics case. Is it MLB cards, is it

383
00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:45.160
NFL cards, is it NBA cards?

384
00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:47.160
Is it all trading cards?

385
00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:50.759
Is it all trading cards minus aretcgs in there? Is

386
00:19:50.799 --> 00:19:51.440
it wrestling?

387
00:19:51.799 --> 00:19:52.160
I mean?

388
00:19:52.279 --> 00:19:56.119
You know, so there's so many different combinations and permutations.

389
00:19:56.359 --> 00:20:00.240
So you could see that the lower that the wild

390
00:20:00.279 --> 00:20:03.440
card court could come and say, hey, it's all trading

391
00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:07.160
cards all together, including TCGs and everything else. And because

392
00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:09.720
of that, Panini, you don't have market power. This case

393
00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:11.960
goes by by well that the fanatics could say, hey,

394
00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:15.920
that case down there said it's all trading cards, and

395
00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:18.240
there's this company over here called Nintendo and they own

396
00:20:18.279 --> 00:20:21.799
Pokemon and they're bigger than us. So if it's all

397
00:20:21.799 --> 00:20:24.039
trading cards, you have to look at Pokemon, you have

398
00:20:24.039 --> 00:20:25.839
to look at Magic, you have to look at everything else.

399
00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:27.519
And we're not even in a monopolis. We don't even

400
00:20:27.559 --> 00:20:28.720
have market power in that.

401
00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:33.599
So yeah, no, whatever happens in the wild card case

402
00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:36.559
could definitely affect the fanatic.

403
00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:40.079
What it behoove Panini to like And I'll ask you this,

404
00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:43.200
you know, I don't know the behoof Panini to say

405
00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:47.119
our bad Yeah, we we we slipped off the rails

406
00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:50.079
and we're gonna pay you, and then try to use

407
00:20:50.119 --> 00:20:52.880
that as like, hey, we did the same thing. We're

408
00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:55.359
not proud of that, but this is why we should

409
00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:58.279
win the fanatics lawsuit.

410
00:20:57.880 --> 00:21:01.039
For the said reason. There's all types of options.

411
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:04.119
It's it's you know, I've seen it in other cases

412
00:21:04.680 --> 00:21:08.400
where where you have multiple lawsuits between parties where one

413
00:21:08.440 --> 00:21:12.640
of the parties resolves the action with somebody else provided

414
00:21:12.759 --> 00:21:14.279
you give us favorable testimony.

415
00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:16.440
In this other case, I mean, it's it's not worded

416
00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:16.640
like that.

417
00:21:16.759 --> 00:21:18.759
It sounds like you're paying for a witness, but it's

418
00:21:18.759 --> 00:21:21.519
more of a hey, if you will testify as to

419
00:21:21.559 --> 00:21:24.920
exactly what you testified here, because we think it helps us,

420
00:21:25.119 --> 00:21:27.279
we'll pay you. But you just testify and you say

421
00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:29.359
the same thing here, and that'll give us the win.

422
00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:30.759
So there's mull time.

423
00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:33.400
I mean, that's that's what's really needed about anti trust cases.

424
00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:36.319
It's like, you know, like a like a like an

425
00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:38.920
auto like a car crash case. That's kind of like

426
00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:41.319
tick teck. But then you get to more complex cases

427
00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:44.559
like these commercial disputes over contracts and everything else, that's

428
00:21:44.680 --> 00:21:47.079
like chess. But when you get to anti trust and

429
00:21:47.079 --> 00:21:50.000
competing anti trust actions, well, now you've got three D

430
00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:53.000
chess and it's just it's just really fun stuff to

431
00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:57.039
watch because every move does affect everything else that happens.

432
00:21:57.039 --> 00:21:59.359
And when you have that across a couple of different cases,

433
00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:01.559
who knows, it's so many variables, it's so.

434
00:22:01.559 --> 00:22:02.359
Fun to lie.

435
00:22:02.519 --> 00:22:06.200
One last question with the Panini wildcard thing. Obviously someone

436
00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:11.039
maybe from Wildcard or the distributor, tipped off Wildcard Debt

437
00:22:11.480 --> 00:22:14.400
that this was a play Panini made and they kind

438
00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:17.519
of strong armed us. Would that person have to be

439
00:22:17.640 --> 00:22:21.640
subpoenaed and have to make a statement and core and

440
00:22:21.680 --> 00:22:24.640
if so, would they have to be identified where they

441
00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:29.160
could their employment potentially could be at risk? You know,

442
00:22:29.319 --> 00:22:31.440
I know, it shouldn't be like that but we know

443
00:22:31.519 --> 00:22:33.240
how that goes, right, right.

444
00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:37.640
No, in any lawsuit, both sides have to be completely open.

445
00:22:37.799 --> 00:22:38.359
You cannot.

446
00:22:38.519 --> 00:22:40.440
You know, despite the fact that you've seen TV shows

447
00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:43.559
where there's a surprise witness at trial, that never happens.

448
00:22:43.720 --> 00:22:45.680
If you showed up to a trial with a surprise witness,

449
00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:48.000
the judge would not let you have that witness. So

450
00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:52.200
each side has to fully disclose their witnesses, their evidence,

451
00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:54.920
and let the other side poke at it. So, yes,

452
00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:57.599
that all that information would have to be disclosed. If

453
00:22:57.640 --> 00:23:00.720
it was a individual from a third party, from a distributor,

454
00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:05.319
then either they can voluntarily testify or yes, they could

455
00:23:05.319 --> 00:23:08.359
be subpoena uh and and brought into this end even

456
00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:10.319
if they don't want to, they could be subpoena to be.

457
00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:12.440
I was gonna say, though, what if they say, listen,

458
00:23:12.880 --> 00:23:15.200
I want to tell the truth. But if I go

459
00:23:15.319 --> 00:23:18.039
on the stand and tell the truth, my company, you know,

460
00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:22.160
Jimmy's distributing, I'll use a fictitio will fire me. I

461
00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:26.039
will lose my like I'll be committing employment suicide. Like

462
00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:28.839
and so I can't do it. Like what what you know,

463
00:23:28.920 --> 00:23:32.559
what happens when that happened? Well, how does that work.

464
00:23:32.599 --> 00:23:34.079
When you when when you're under oath.

465
00:23:34.359 --> 00:23:35.960
You know what they tell you when you're under oath

466
00:23:36.039 --> 00:23:38.720
is you have to testify to the truth, the whole truth,

467
00:23:38.920 --> 00:23:39.960
and nothing but the truth.

468
00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:41.559
It's not going to give you.

469
00:23:41.319 --> 00:23:44.319
Uh, you know, the exemptions there Now, there are protections

470
00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:47.119
that you could have in cases. You can have confidentiality

471
00:23:47.319 --> 00:23:50.519
agreements so that it's not known to the world that's

472
00:23:50.559 --> 00:23:53.480
out there, but it'll be known, uh to the parties

473
00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:56.680
that are there. And depending on which side you're on, well,

474
00:23:56.720 --> 00:24:00.000
the fact that somebody is bringing undue pressure on this individual,

475
00:24:00.279 --> 00:24:03.000
it could help their case. So, I know, I hate

476
00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:05.359
to say that. You know, lawyers like cases when they

477
00:24:05.400 --> 00:24:08.839
get really awful because it means the damages go up. Well,

478
00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:11.200
if you have strife like this between a witness and

479
00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:13.960
a witness is being pressured, depending on who you are,

480
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:16.160
you may want that you may want to bring that

481
00:24:16.200 --> 00:24:18.319
out because it might ultimately help your client.

482
00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:23.160
Yeah, that's definitely a lot of tentacles involved. There's especially

483
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:26.160
in the case because now you have Panini wildcard in

484
00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:29.039
a distributor, you got sort of that you know, they're

485
00:24:29.079 --> 00:24:32.039
sort of caught in the middle, and it's probably because

486
00:24:32.039 --> 00:24:34.480
of them that the case even you know, they're one

487
00:24:34.519 --> 00:24:36.240
of the reason, I'm not saying the only reason, but

488
00:24:36.599 --> 00:24:39.880
probably one of the main cogs of why this is

489
00:24:39.960 --> 00:24:44.079
even a case in litigation to begin with, right, because

490
00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:48.920
they whoever agreed like, yeah, we're not gonna carry Wildcard, right,

491
00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:53.359
they allowed themselves to be strong armed, and here we are. Right.

492
00:24:53.480 --> 00:24:57.319
So it'll be interesting and like you said, it'll be

493
00:24:57.400 --> 00:25:01.400
interesting to see how one plays into the bigger one, which,

494
00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:05.759
like you said, Panini Wilco will probably wrap up before

495
00:25:06.119 --> 00:25:09.039
the Panini Fanatics one does.

496
00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:13.039
And so there's already a fight Panini versus Fanatics case

497
00:25:13.240 --> 00:25:17.400
where it looks like Fanatics has already sent a subpoena

498
00:25:17.519 --> 00:25:20.400
too wild Card, basically asking for give us all the

499
00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:24.960
good stuff for it, and Panini's actually fighting that saying, hey,

500
00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:27.680
you can't do well. I think Fanatics is gonna win that,

501
00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:31.400
but it's fun to say win. They'll win the documents

502
00:25:31.400 --> 00:25:33.799
from that subpoena. But I mean, but you can already

503
00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:37.039
see the pressure points are already building between the both.

504
00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:41.079
Yeah again, you know, like I said, you know, whether

505
00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:43.880
you have whether you follow it, you like this stuff.

506
00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:48.200
I mean this it is has a bearing on what

507
00:25:48.359 --> 00:25:52.319
comes after and down the line in the Hobby. So well,

508
00:25:52.359 --> 00:25:56.440
whether you're interested or not, these cases matter, right, that's

509
00:25:56.440 --> 00:25:59.559
gonna do it for this week's episode. Again, this is

510
00:25:59.599 --> 00:26:04.759
a four part series with Paul LESCo who is a

511
00:26:04.839 --> 00:26:08.920
lawyer or an attorney, but also a hobbyist and collector

512
00:26:09.279 --> 00:26:14.119
and follows these court cases and does a great job

513
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:17.400
getting to the nuts and bolts and then again exp

514
00:26:17.799 --> 00:26:20.680
you know, he understands everything, but it's a talent to

515
00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:26.039
explain to someone who's not in the legal profession what

516
00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:28.480
is really going on to the t and he does

517
00:26:28.519 --> 00:26:30.240
a great job of that. That's why we have him

518
00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:33.640
on besides being a great guy. So we have one

519
00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:39.640
more part four next week on next week's episode. And

520
00:26:39.759 --> 00:26:43.839
I've kept these episodes short, especially when it becomes you know,

521
00:26:43.880 --> 00:26:47.119
because we're talking about legal stuff. I think sometimes shorter

522
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:51.200
is sweeter. So hope you enjoying this series. One more

523
00:26:51.240 --> 00:26:53.559
to go. We're gonna wrap up this week's episode with

524
00:26:54.079 --> 00:26:57.519
the Hobby is the People Announcer of the Week, and

525
00:26:58.240 --> 00:26:59.359
we'll see you soon.

526
00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:04.079
Time for our Hobby is the People Announcer of the Week.

527
00:27:07.319 --> 00:27:11.079
Hello, this is Mark Hoyle, and remember the Hobby

528
00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:14.680
Is the People If you'd like to be the Hobby

529
00:27:14.720 --> 00:27:17.759
is the People Announcer of the Week to A or

530
00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:21.480
MP three file and send it to Sportscard Nation PC

531
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:24.599
at gmail dot com.