Jan. 2, 2026

Card Companies suing each other w/"The Hobby Lawyer" Paul Lesko E369

Card Companies suing each other w/"The Hobby Lawyer" Paul Lesko E369
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"The Hobby Lawyer" Paul Lesko is back. 

 

Today's Hobby Court Cases:

Numerous card companies suing each other.  


Paul joins us to discuss some interesting hobby related court cases.  


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WEBVTT

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Sports Guardinations, Hobbies, the People, Wheely News and Interviews. It's

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your number one soul, sports Garnation Hobby is the people.

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Spawns Guarnation.

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What is up? Everybody? Welcome to episode three sixty nine

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of Sports Cardination. Hope your holiday is a good one

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and your new year is off to a great start.

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This is part three in our four part series with

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attorney Paul LESCo discussing hobby litigation cases, and Paul does

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a great job of breaking it down the nuts and

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bolts of it, make it easy, making it easy for

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us to consume and understand. You don't have to listen

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to them necessarily in order, so if you missed one

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or two you can go back and catch those. They

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one doesn't I kind of break them up where we're

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not talking about the same case on two different episodes,

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So even if you missed the first two that's being

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part three, you can kind of go back and check

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it out. You don't have to listen to him in order.

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And next week's are part four or four, concluding the

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series up and as long as Paul come on, I

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think we'll have him on every so up often kind

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of the update, what's going on? In the legal side

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of the hobby if you will, so as always want

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to thank our sponsors, Iron Sports, Cards, Sports Collectors, Digest,

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Hobby Hotline, and upper that. So with that being said,

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let's get the show started. This is the part three

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of our four part series with Paul LESCo, and we're

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gonna start out. I'm gonna ask him about when a

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company or person loses, you know, a judgment in a

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court case where they have to pay money, and if

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they don't have money, if they're wage you know, if

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it's garnished or it's automatically taken out. So that's where

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we start, and then we go into other hobby litigation cases.

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I hope you enjoy this series, and there's one more

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next week as well. Can there's no garnishing of like

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future income or anything like that, Like you you have

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to pay restitution, like you have twenty years to pay

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twenty thousand dollars. I'm just making up number.

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You know, Normally a judge wants payment instantaneously, so when

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it comes to you know, if if in this case,

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and you know, so, we actually changes the one of

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the other cases we want to talk about, and we

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can talk.

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About it in this way, yeah, go ahead, go ahead. Yeah.

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So so the there's been another long running lawsuit.

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This is the Lorcanic Cake.

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This is Upper Deck versus Ravensburger, Robinsburger and Ryan Miller.

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And basically this is a case that was about Ryan

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Miller used to be a consultant for Upper Deck working

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on a brand new tea that Upper Deck was was

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going to release. Ryan Miller left and went to Ravensburger.

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Robinsburger then released Lorcana, which is a Disney based trading

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card game. Upper Deck saw the rules for Lorcana and

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they said, hey, those are our rules.

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That's the rules for the game that we were working on.

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We think he stole our trade secrets, brought him over

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to Robinsburger, came out with a Lorcana game, and now

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we're gonna look like we're copying Lorcana. So Upper Decks

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sued Ravensburger over the over the Locana game. And this

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lawsuit's gone on for three three years. It's been going

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on forever. So we finally were getting ready to have

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a trial, and right before the trial, one of the

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major claims was a copyright infringement claim. Basically, Upper Decks

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sued Robinsburger saying you infringed our copyrights in the game.

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They sued Ryan Miller saying, hey, you breached your NDAs

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to us. You gave confidential information to her side. So

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the court held that no, there was no copyright infringement

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because you cannot copyright game mechanic and that's really what

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you copyright here. None of Upper Deeck's game had Disney characters.

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If anything that you're suing on it has to do

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with how to the games, and you cannot copyright game mechanics.

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It's just basic law that's out there. So right before trial,

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Robinsberger got released. Ryan Miller, however, was still in the case,

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but he was only in the case for a breach

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of contract. And you know, looking at the briefing, it

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was basically, at most Upper Deck you can get thirty

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nine thousand dollars from him, because that's all you paid

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him while he worked for you. So Ryan Miller said,

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you know what, it's not worth going to trial. I

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will let you get a judgment against me, and he

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offered what's called an author of judgment, saying, hey, I'll

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pay you the full amount you're asking thirty or I'll

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pay you thirty nine thousand dollars. This would be all

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that you can get and we don't have to go

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to trial. And upper Deck accepted case over. We didn't

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have a trial. But it's not because Robinsburger then comes

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back and says, hey, upper Deck fought this case against us.

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For three years. This was we had twelve different attorneys,

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we had experts, we had all these depositions, we had

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three point four million dollars of an attorneys.

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And because we think this case had no basis, because

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you can't copyright game mechanics and because copyright allows you

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to fee shi win and is egregious, well, we want

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upper Deck now to pay us three point four million dollars,

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which is you know, it's it sounds crazy, but that's

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probably an accurate amount for attorneys for a copyright case.

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But that just shows how a plaintiff's case can go wrong.

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Because upper Deck brought the lawsuit. Upper Deck was the plaintiff.

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Upper Deck was suing for I can't remember what it was.

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If it twenty twenty five million dollars, you know, however

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much money it was, it could have been more than that.

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And now they may end up paying three point four

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million dollars or something around there an attorney.

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If the court agrees with Robins vers so so. So

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to bring it back to what we were talking about.

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So why that's relevant is because if the judge says,

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upper deck, you O three point four million dollars that's

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due today. You know that's due within the like the

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next week. You have to pay it. And now you

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can appeal. And if you appeal it, that's fine, we'll

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put it in the bank. We'll let it accrue interest.

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But you're still paying it just to the bank and

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we'll hold on to it.

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You're on mute.

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Yeah, even if you appeal, you still have to pay.

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It just sort of goes into like a middleman fund.

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Sure, yeah, you have to post. You have to post

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a bond.

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Uh So just so just appealing does it delay payment?

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Like you still have to pay, just doesn't go to

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the winner of the case yet correct the appeal. Wow,

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So like you're not off the hook in terms of

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financial you still got to cough up to dough. No.

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You typically only will see like a garnishment and say

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like uh, in a divorce, payments are due automatically on

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a on a schedule, and maybe the you know, individual

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who needs to be garnished is not the most you know,

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does not pay on time all it. Sometimes we'll see

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it in maybe a bankruptcy where the plaintiff wants to

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or maybe doesn't want to. The court tells the plaintiff

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that he has to make these debts as whole as possible.

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So what we're gonna do is.

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We're gonna garnish your paycheck for that.

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However, typically when a case wins, if it's not bankruptcy

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or if it's not like a family law matter like that.

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The money is due like almost yeah.

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Yeah, see I learned something right there, Paul. So let

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me ask you going back to this upper Deck versus

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robins Burger case. Can upper Deck point to the fact

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that Ryan Miller in a sense pleaded sort of no

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contest the way like he did to say, well, that's

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why we shouldn't have to pay. Uh, you know, we

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really kind of won that case in a sense, why

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do we have to pay?

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We won?

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Why?

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That's exactly you know, and that's exactly what they're doing.

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So upper Deck is saying, these two you know, you're

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you're you know robins Berger, you're trying to say there's

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two cases.

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They're not.

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These cases are so intertwined and regardless as to whether

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that we only paid thirty nine thousand dollars, this was

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a complex contract action that involved intellectual property. So the

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analysis is that we need to do for this, were

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the same for this. You can't cut the cases in half. Robinsberger,

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on the other hand, is saying, no, they're completely different.

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That was the breach of contract for allegedly sharing something

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he shouldn't have shared. This is a copyright infringement case

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having into the game. So it'll it'll really turn on

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what does the judge do. Does he does she view

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the cases as completely intertwined, or does she think that,

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you know, these are separable cases, and if they're separable,

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maybe some of the attorneys should be allocated to this

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and some of the attorneys' it's it's fascinating and I

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can't wait to see. We haven't seen Upper Deck's response

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yet to the fees, so I'm looking forward to seeing

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that and then definitely looking forward to seeing how the judge.

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What happens if someone doesn't want either doesn't pay it,

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or doesn't have the money to pay. Even in an

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Upper decks case. Let's say they're like whatever reason they're

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criving poverty, or we we lost money the last three years,

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so we don't we don't have that capital to pay.

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Like what happens legality wise when that occurs?

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If the so you.

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Really have you know, there's basically two options, you know,

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because when when a judge rules or there's a judgment

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out there, if you don't pay, you're in contempt of

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the court ordered you to do something.

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You have to do something. So you can try to.

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File a motion with the court and explain hardship or

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you know, explain what's going on, but invariably what the

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court will say, Okay, go to bankruptcy court. You need

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to open up a bankruptcy matter, get a trustee involved,

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and let the trustee determine how much money do you

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actually have and.

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How much you can pay.

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Because there's only so much you can trust the other

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side about. They'll they'll want an entirely new matter opened up.

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Well, if you couldn't jud I was gonna say, couldn't

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judge say I want to see your books or open

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your books, like you can say you're broke, so I need.

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Yeah, judges are yeah, they're typically so busy they don't

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they don't do that. So typically the judges will just

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say I want the other side is to show me

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what's going on in a bankruptcy a court. When you

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have a bankruptcy trustee, they are more aggressive. They will

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actually ask for things, they will look for things. It

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is their job to dig into it. But it takes

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a long time. A normal judge won't have time to

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go through all that. That's why they probably require a

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completely separate bankruptcy matter to be open. So and just

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just to be clear, you know, we're we're not saying

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that upper Deck can't pay. If they have to pay

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three point four million dollars, we can't say that they

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would go into bankruptcy. I fully imagine if there is

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a you know, bad judgment against upper Deck, it could

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post the bond while it fights the peal.

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And it has.

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Already said that it's appealing the case itself. It'll just

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be one more issue to go upon a people.

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Yeah that it is interesting now and now a judge

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has to determine was this one case everything or was

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this one case actually two cases? And if that's the ruling,

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we're not done as leek Horso would say, not so fast,

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my friend, exactly right, exactly so, yeah, that'll be that'll

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be interesting to see how that winds up.

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It's time for a quick break. Bots will be right fag.

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Iron Sports Cards is your number one source for all

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your PSA and other grading submissions. Their elite status improves

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offer wax options and single cards to cover all the bases.

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Check them out on Facebook at Iron Sports Cards Group

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or on the web at Iron Sportscards dot com, or

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even give them a call at one eight seven seven

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I ro o n p SA. Rob's got you covered.

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Sports Comnation has resons.

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Kind of rolling right into you. Our next case talking

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about two hobby companies manufacturers right litigation. This one a

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little bit more recent, not that the others aren't recent reason,

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but this one I think, uh even more recent with

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00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:18.279
the wild Card versus Panini, and I'll kind of start

234
00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:21.440
off and you can kind of correct my errors if

235
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you will, But wild Card suing Panini for anti trust,

236
00:12:26.279 --> 00:12:30.799
basically saying Panini went to distributors and threatened them, Hey, like,

237
00:12:30.840 --> 00:12:33.879
if you want to carry our products and get allocation

238
00:12:34.120 --> 00:12:38.440
from us, you'll turn turn a cold shoulder to to

239
00:12:38.600 --> 00:12:44.240
wild Card and not carry uh theirs and dirty you know,

240
00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:48.039
dirty tactics if true, and uh, but not the first

241
00:12:48.039 --> 00:12:53.799
time that whatever happened, uh in the history of the world. Uh,

242
00:12:53.840 --> 00:12:54.879
how did I describe it?

243
00:12:55.480 --> 00:12:56.679
I think I think you nailed it.

244
00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:00.759
I mean, you really did, because it's the It's kind

245
00:13:00.759 --> 00:13:03.000
of funny because you know, in the background, what we

246
00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:07.000
have going on is Panine's anti trust lawsuit against Fanatics

247
00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:10.840
that's been ongoing for a while right now, where Panine's

248
00:13:10.879 --> 00:13:15.679
basically saying, hey, we had the NBA products, we have

249
00:13:15.759 --> 00:13:19.440
the NFL products, and now we've lost them both. And

250
00:13:19.799 --> 00:13:23.919
Fanatics has too many licenses. They have MLB, they have NBA,

251
00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:27.320
they have NFL they have that's too many and there

252
00:13:27.399 --> 00:13:31.320
are licenses. I'm oversimplifying, but that's basically what's going on there.

253
00:13:31.559 --> 00:13:34.120
So jump to what happened, and I think it was

254
00:13:34.120 --> 00:13:39.159
filed in early November, is when Wildcard filed against Panini,

255
00:13:39.399 --> 00:13:43.559
basically saying, hey, back when you had the NFL license,

256
00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:46.679
back when you had the NBA license, we were trying

257
00:13:46.679 --> 00:13:49.320
to compete against. You were the big dog that was

258
00:13:49.360 --> 00:13:51.919
out there. You were the one that the distributors were

259
00:13:51.919 --> 00:13:56.120
listening to. And because you made the alleged threat that

260
00:13:56.159 --> 00:13:59.000
if you do business with wild Card, you know, bad

261
00:13:59.000 --> 00:13:59.759
things will happen.

262
00:13:59.799 --> 00:14:01.399
You know, don't do business with them or else. I

263
00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:02.240
don't run the.

264
00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:05.080
Exact language, but it was something along those lines that

265
00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:06.519
within like a.

266
00:14:06.559 --> 00:14:10.519
Three day period, we lost four distributors. Distributors, we were.

267
00:14:10.360 --> 00:14:13.120
Already doing this and the only thing that changed in

268
00:14:13.159 --> 00:14:16.919
between now and then was you had a conference with

269
00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:20.159
the distributors. We alleged these things were said, and then

270
00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:22.320
a few weeks later, within this you know.

271
00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:24.600
Three or four day period, we lost four distries.

272
00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:28.600
So it's basically, Panini, you had market power and you

273
00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:32.039
misused your market power, which is funny because that's what

274
00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:35.919
the Panini is saying the fanatics, fanatics, you now have

275
00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:39.840
market power, but you misused it and that's what hurt us.

276
00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:42.279
So it's it's just fascinating that you normally don't have

277
00:14:42.320 --> 00:14:47.240
two anti trust lawsuits ongoing for the same area at

278
00:14:47.240 --> 00:14:47.879
the same time.

279
00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:49.159
So it's a fun.

280
00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:50.879
One and I think it's gonna be a tricky one

281
00:14:50.919 --> 00:14:53.399
for Panini because you have to be very careful to

282
00:14:53.480 --> 00:14:57.639
not have inconsistent position between both cases. You know, if

283
00:14:57.679 --> 00:15:00.840
you're saying fanatics did something and it's bad and whoops,

284
00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:03.440
we did the same thing here, well, that looks like

285
00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:05.480
it's an admission that you did something. The way that

286
00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:08.679
these two cases interplay between themselves is it's gonna be fascinating.

287
00:15:08.759 --> 00:15:11.240
It's like the last scene in Anchorman when all the

288
00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:14.159
Anchormen are like just trying to kill each other and

289
00:15:15.320 --> 00:15:16.480
you know, machetes.

290
00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:17.080
Yeah.

291
00:15:17.159 --> 00:15:20.480
I would tell me if if this is correct, Paul, Like,

292
00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:24.759
if if Wildcard is bringing this case to court right

293
00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:28.279
in alleging this, it's gotta be more than To me,

294
00:15:28.519 --> 00:15:31.559
I would think it's more than Hey, you had these

295
00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:35.399
these meetings and then this happened. I gotta think somebody

296
00:15:35.519 --> 00:15:38.840
went to Wildcard and said, hey, this is what Like,

297
00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:40.919
there's got to be more than that. I think someone

298
00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:44.320
had to like spill the tea, right that so and

299
00:15:44.360 --> 00:15:49.200
so did this and said this to us. You know this, right,

300
00:15:49.559 --> 00:15:50.519
I would think so.

301
00:15:50.759 --> 00:15:55.279
Yeah, because they because we don't get those specifics in

302
00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:58.159
the complaint, and you don't need those specifics at the complaint,

303
00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:01.440
but they do allege that there was a distributor conference,

304
00:16:01.559 --> 00:16:05.559
and at this distributor conference, somebody from Panini said, so

305
00:16:06.039 --> 00:16:09.440
we you know, it sounds like I doubt Wildcard was there,

306
00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:12.240
So it sounds like somebody, Yeah, somebody who was at

307
00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:17.240
that distributor conference told Wildcard what happened. As the case progresses,

308
00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:19.399
maybe we'll find out who they are. You know, who

309
00:16:19.399 --> 00:16:22.480
they are, what they said, and were there other instances

310
00:16:22.519 --> 00:16:25.320
of this. So we'll just have to wait till the

311
00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:29.919
case develops. But we had a filing in the Panini

312
00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:32.559
versus Fanatics matter, and it has to do with discovery.

313
00:16:32.759 --> 00:16:34.039
It's a boring filing.

314
00:16:34.279 --> 00:16:38.240
But in their Panini does say that they allege the

315
00:16:38.279 --> 00:16:41.799
Wildcard case is a frivolous loss. They say there's no

316
00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:44.480
merit to it and we're gonna win that one going away.

317
00:16:44.600 --> 00:16:47.600
So I'm looking for I'm looking forward to seeing what

318
00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:50.919
Panini's response is in court to the lassit. We haven't

319
00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:54.080
seen that one yet. Panini just got served. They we

320
00:16:54.159 --> 00:16:57.360
probably won't see their response for maybe forty five days.

321
00:16:57.360 --> 00:16:58.399
Sixty days you.

322
00:16:58.360 --> 00:17:00.759
Normally get a little bit more extra time for antitrust case.

323
00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:03.279
But it will be fascinating to see what they respond.

324
00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:04.119
And I guarantee.

325
00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:06.359
It's going to be a motion to dismiss saying the

326
00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:08.559
wild Card case has no merit, and I think it'll

327
00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:09.200
be fun reading.

328
00:17:09.319 --> 00:17:13.920
Whenever case gets resolved first will have any kind of

329
00:17:13.960 --> 00:17:16.880
bearing on the other one. If it's still that one's

330
00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:17.759
still going on.

331
00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:20.880
Well, I think whichever case gets resolved first, it'll be

332
00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:24.799
the Wildcard case, because the Fanatics case, as complicated as that,

333
00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:26.720
that's going to be going until twenty twenty eight. I

334
00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:29.799
mean there are we got at least three more years

335
00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:30.079
on that.

336
00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:31.200
Anti trust cases.

337
00:17:31.240 --> 00:17:34.680
They basically involved almost almost all the document you have,

338
00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:37.720
because it has to do with damages, it has to

339
00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:40.160
do with your licenses, it has to do products. This

340
00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:43.559
case has to do with manufacturing. I mean it's not

341
00:17:43.640 --> 00:17:46.640
just for Fanatic side, but also from East side too,

342
00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:50.119
So there's huge volumes of documents that are going back

343
00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:52.279
and forth. But then also you have to have a

344
00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:54.279
lot of witnesses that you're going to be talking to,

345
00:17:54.759 --> 00:17:57.559
and then you have to have experts, and the experts

346
00:17:57.559 --> 00:18:01.640
in anti trust cases are so expensive and they take

347
00:18:01.720 --> 00:18:04.640
so long to do their stuff, so that case is

348
00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:08.279
gonna take a long time. The wild Card case that's

349
00:18:08.680 --> 00:18:12.279
very focused it's saying, Panini, you have market power. We

350
00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:15.599
think you know, according to the what you have filed

351
00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:18.359
in the Fanatics case that you're admitting you have market power.

352
00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:20.160
You were the marketing. So we don't really need to

353
00:18:20.200 --> 00:18:20.839
go into that.

354
00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:23.079
All we need to go into is what was said

355
00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:26.000
at the distributor meeting, what was said to the distributors,

356
00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:28.319
and why did the distributors actually leave?

357
00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:30.519
And so I think that's a much simpler case.

358
00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:33.720
So I could see the wild Card case, even though

359
00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:36.839
it was filed two years later and two years afterwards,

360
00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:40.559
it could end itself in probably if it goes all

361
00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:43.079
the way, probably two years. That's probably only a two

362
00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:45.799
year case. So even though it was later filed, it

363
00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:49.119
could take two years. And I guarantee Fanatics is going

364
00:18:49.119 --> 00:18:52.680
to be watching that case, and anytime Panini slips up

365
00:18:52.680 --> 00:18:55.160
in that case, or anytime there's good evidence, you know,

366
00:18:55.480 --> 00:18:55.759
all their.

367
00:18:55.759 --> 00:18:57.640
Lawyers are jotting it down and like we're gonna bring

368
00:18:57.720 --> 00:18:58.480
this in new ar case.

369
00:18:58.559 --> 00:19:00.880
Well, I was gonna ask you that could a Panini

370
00:19:01.039 --> 00:19:04.240
loss in the wild Card case actually help them in

371
00:19:04.279 --> 00:19:07.480
their case against Fanatics? In other words, it would it's

372
00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:11.200
like losing losing a battle to win the war to

373
00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:13.880
use an old you know, military.

374
00:19:13.720 --> 00:19:16.599
And that's that that could that could be you know,

375
00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:18.799
I could be a way to do it too, because

376
00:19:18.839 --> 00:19:21.880
they could in essence have something that said, you know,

377
00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:25.000
like for fanatics, I mean, because one of the big

378
00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:29.079
fights in a anti trust case is what is the market?

379
00:19:29.319 --> 00:19:31.559
You know, because you need to have a specific definition

380
00:19:31.640 --> 00:19:34.680
of what is the market in which you are the monopoly.

381
00:19:34.839 --> 00:19:38.079
So and that's that's one of the complex things about

382
00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:42.319
the Panine fanatics case. Is it MLB cards, is it

383
00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:45.160
NFL cards, is it NBA cards?

384
00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:47.160
Is it all trading cards?

385
00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:50.759
Is it all trading cards minus aretcgs in there? Is

386
00:19:50.799 --> 00:19:51.440
it wrestling?

387
00:19:51.799 --> 00:19:52.160
I mean?

388
00:19:52.279 --> 00:19:56.119
You know, so there's so many different combinations and permutations.

389
00:19:56.359 --> 00:20:00.240
So you could see that the lower that the wild

390
00:20:00.279 --> 00:20:03.440
card court could come and say, hey, it's all trading

391
00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:07.160
cards all together, including TCGs and everything else. And because

392
00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:09.720
of that, Panini, you don't have market power. This case

393
00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:11.960
goes by by well that the fanatics could say, hey,

394
00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:15.920
that case down there said it's all trading cards, and

395
00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:18.240
there's this company over here called Nintendo and they own

396
00:20:18.279 --> 00:20:21.799
Pokemon and they're bigger than us. So if it's all

397
00:20:21.799 --> 00:20:24.039
trading cards, you have to look at Pokemon, you have

398
00:20:24.039 --> 00:20:25.839
to look at Magic, you have to look at everything else.

399
00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:27.519
And we're not even in a monopolis. We don't even

400
00:20:27.559 --> 00:20:28.720
have market power in that.

401
00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:33.599
So yeah, no, whatever happens in the wild card case

402
00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:36.559
could definitely affect the fanatic.

403
00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:40.079
What it behoove Panini to like And I'll ask you this,

404
00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:43.200
you know, I don't know the behoof Panini to say

405
00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:47.119
our bad Yeah, we we we slipped off the rails

406
00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:50.079
and we're gonna pay you, and then try to use

407
00:20:50.119 --> 00:20:52.880
that as like, hey, we did the same thing. We're

408
00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:55.359
not proud of that, but this is why we should

409
00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:58.279
win the fanatics lawsuit.

410
00:20:57.880 --> 00:21:01.039
For the said reason. There's all types of options.

411
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:04.119
It's it's you know, I've seen it in other cases

412
00:21:04.680 --> 00:21:08.400
where where you have multiple lawsuits between parties where one

413
00:21:08.440 --> 00:21:12.640
of the parties resolves the action with somebody else provided

414
00:21:12.759 --> 00:21:14.279
you give us favorable testimony.

415
00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:16.440
In this other case, I mean, it's it's not worded

416
00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:16.640
like that.

417
00:21:16.759 --> 00:21:18.759
It sounds like you're paying for a witness, but it's

418
00:21:18.759 --> 00:21:21.519
more of a hey, if you will testify as to

419
00:21:21.559 --> 00:21:24.920
exactly what you testified here, because we think it helps us,

420
00:21:25.119 --> 00:21:27.279
we'll pay you. But you just testify and you say

421
00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:29.359
the same thing here, and that'll give us the win.

422
00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:30.759
So there's mull time.

423
00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:33.400
I mean, that's that's what's really needed about anti trust cases.

424
00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:36.319
It's like, you know, like a like a like an

425
00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:38.920
auto like a car crash case. That's kind of like

426
00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:41.319
tick teck. But then you get to more complex cases

427
00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:44.559
like these commercial disputes over contracts and everything else, that's

428
00:21:44.680 --> 00:21:47.079
like chess. But when you get to anti trust and

429
00:21:47.079 --> 00:21:50.000
competing anti trust actions, well, now you've got three D

430
00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:53.000
chess and it's just it's just really fun stuff to

431
00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:57.039
watch because every move does affect everything else that happens.

432
00:21:57.039 --> 00:21:59.359
And when you have that across a couple of different cases,

433
00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:01.559
who knows, it's so many variables, it's so.

434
00:22:01.559 --> 00:22:02.359
Fun to lie.

435
00:22:02.519 --> 00:22:06.200
One last question with the Panini wildcard thing. Obviously someone

436
00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:11.039
maybe from Wildcard or the distributor, tipped off Wildcard Debt

437
00:22:11.480 --> 00:22:14.400
that this was a play Panini made and they kind

438
00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:17.519
of strong armed us. Would that person have to be

439
00:22:17.640 --> 00:22:21.640
subpoenaed and have to make a statement and core and

440
00:22:21.680 --> 00:22:24.640
if so, would they have to be identified where they

441
00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:29.160
could their employment potentially could be at risk? You know,

442
00:22:29.319 --> 00:22:31.440
I know, it shouldn't be like that but we know

443
00:22:31.519 --> 00:22:33.240
how that goes, right, right.

444
00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:37.640
No, in any lawsuit, both sides have to be completely open.

445
00:22:37.799 --> 00:22:38.359
You cannot.

446
00:22:38.519 --> 00:22:40.440
You know, despite the fact that you've seen TV shows

447
00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:43.559
where there's a surprise witness at trial, that never happens.

448
00:22:43.720 --> 00:22:45.680
If you showed up to a trial with a surprise witness,

449
00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:48.000
the judge would not let you have that witness. So

450
00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:52.200
each side has to fully disclose their witnesses, their evidence,

451
00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:54.920
and let the other side poke at it. So, yes,

452
00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:57.599
that all that information would have to be disclosed. If

453
00:22:57.640 --> 00:23:00.720
it was a individual from a third party, from a distributor,

454
00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:05.319
then either they can voluntarily testify or yes, they could

455
00:23:05.319 --> 00:23:08.359
be subpoena uh and and brought into this end even

456
00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:10.319
if they don't want to, they could be subpoena to be.

457
00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:12.440
I was gonna say, though, what if they say, listen,

458
00:23:12.880 --> 00:23:15.200
I want to tell the truth. But if I go

459
00:23:15.319 --> 00:23:18.039
on the stand and tell the truth, my company, you know,

460
00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:22.160
Jimmy's distributing, I'll use a fictitio will fire me. I

461
00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:26.039
will lose my like I'll be committing employment suicide. Like

462
00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:28.839
and so I can't do it. Like what what you know,

463
00:23:28.920 --> 00:23:32.559
what happens when that happened? Well, how does that work.

464
00:23:32.599 --> 00:23:34.079
When you when when you're under oath.

465
00:23:34.359 --> 00:23:35.960
You know what they tell you when you're under oath

466
00:23:36.039 --> 00:23:38.720
is you have to testify to the truth, the whole truth,

467
00:23:38.920 --> 00:23:39.960
and nothing but the truth.

468
00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:41.559
It's not going to give you.

469
00:23:41.319 --> 00:23:44.319
Uh, you know, the exemptions there Now, there are protections

470
00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:47.119
that you could have in cases. You can have confidentiality

471
00:23:47.319 --> 00:23:50.519
agreements so that it's not known to the world that's

472
00:23:50.559 --> 00:23:53.480
out there, but it'll be known, uh to the parties

473
00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:56.680
that are there. And depending on which side you're on, well,

474
00:23:56.720 --> 00:24:00.000
the fact that somebody is bringing undue pressure on this individual,

475
00:24:00.279 --> 00:24:03.000
it could help their case. So, I know, I hate

476
00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:05.359
to say that. You know, lawyers like cases when they

477
00:24:05.400 --> 00:24:08.839
get really awful because it means the damages go up. Well,

478
00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:11.200
if you have strife like this between a witness and

479
00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:13.960
a witness is being pressured, depending on who you are,

480
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:16.160
you may want that you may want to bring that

481
00:24:16.200 --> 00:24:18.319
out because it might ultimately help your client.

482
00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:23.160
Yeah, that's definitely a lot of tentacles involved. There's especially

483
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:26.160
in the case because now you have Panini wildcard in

484
00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:29.039
a distributor, you got sort of that you know, they're

485
00:24:29.079 --> 00:24:32.039
sort of caught in the middle, and it's probably because

486
00:24:32.039 --> 00:24:34.480
of them that the case even you know, they're one

487
00:24:34.519 --> 00:24:36.240
of the reason, I'm not saying the only reason, but

488
00:24:36.599 --> 00:24:39.880
probably one of the main cogs of why this is

489
00:24:39.960 --> 00:24:44.079
even a case in litigation to begin with, right, because

490
00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:48.920
they whoever agreed like, yeah, we're not gonna carry Wildcard, right,

491
00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:53.359
they allowed themselves to be strong armed, and here we are. Right.

492
00:24:53.480 --> 00:24:57.319
So it'll be interesting and like you said, it'll be

493
00:24:57.400 --> 00:25:01.400
interesting to see how one plays into the bigger one, which,

494
00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:05.759
like you said, Panini Wilco will probably wrap up before

495
00:25:06.119 --> 00:25:09.039
the Panini Fanatics one does.

496
00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:13.039
And so there's already a fight Panini versus Fanatics case

497
00:25:13.240 --> 00:25:17.400
where it looks like Fanatics has already sent a subpoena

498
00:25:17.519 --> 00:25:20.400
too wild Card, basically asking for give us all the

499
00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:24.960
good stuff for it, and Panini's actually fighting that saying, hey,

500
00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:27.680
you can't do well. I think Fanatics is gonna win that,

501
00:25:28.160 --> 00:25:31.400
but it's fun to say win. They'll win the documents

502
00:25:31.400 --> 00:25:33.799
from that subpoena. But I mean, but you can already

503
00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:37.039
see the pressure points are already building between the both.

504
00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:41.079
Yeah again, you know, like I said, you know, whether

505
00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:43.880
you have whether you follow it, you like this stuff.

506
00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:48.200
I mean this it is has a bearing on what

507
00:25:48.359 --> 00:25:52.319
comes after and down the line in the Hobby. So well,

508
00:25:52.359 --> 00:25:56.440
whether you're interested or not, these cases matter, right, that's

509
00:25:56.440 --> 00:25:59.559
gonna do it for this week's episode. Again, this is

510
00:25:59.599 --> 00:26:04.759
a four part series with Paul LESCo who is a

511
00:26:04.839 --> 00:26:08.920
lawyer or an attorney, but also a hobbyist and collector

512
00:26:09.279 --> 00:26:14.119
and follows these court cases and does a great job

513
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:17.400
getting to the nuts and bolts and then again exp

514
00:26:17.799 --> 00:26:20.680
you know, he understands everything, but it's a talent to

515
00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:26.039
explain to someone who's not in the legal profession what

516
00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:28.480
is really going on to the t and he does

517
00:26:28.519 --> 00:26:30.240
a great job of that. That's why we have him

518
00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:33.640
on besides being a great guy. So we have one

519
00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:39.640
more part four next week on next week's episode. And

520
00:26:39.759 --> 00:26:43.839
I've kept these episodes short, especially when it becomes you know,

521
00:26:43.880 --> 00:26:47.119
because we're talking about legal stuff. I think sometimes shorter

522
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:51.200
is sweeter. So hope you enjoying this series. One more

523
00:26:51.240 --> 00:26:53.559
to go. We're gonna wrap up this week's episode with

524
00:26:54.079 --> 00:26:57.519
the Hobby is the People Announcer of the Week, and

525
00:26:58.240 --> 00:26:59.359
we'll see you soon.

526
00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:04.079
Time for our Hobby is the People Announcer of the Week.

527
00:27:07.319 --> 00:27:11.079
Hello, this is Mark Hoyle, and remember the Hobby

528
00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:14.680
Is the People If you'd like to be the Hobby

529
00:27:14.720 --> 00:27:17.759
is the People Announcer of the Week to A or

530
00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:21.480
MP three file and send it to Sportscard Nation PC

531
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:24.599
at gmail dot com.