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interviews It's Your Number One Source sports card Nation the hobby is the Nation what is up everybody Welcome to episode 324 of sports card Nation the conclusion of our interview with Michael Dal the director of hobby hustle uh great movie uh we're going to talk more about uh the film in the process but we're going to talk hobby uh as well so I'm going to keep the intro short and sweet uh we're going to take a quick commercial break and we'll be back with more from Michael do director of hobby hustle hey everybody I want to take a quick minute to tell you about a product I use every morning it's a 2.6 uh little shot uh 12 ingredients it's called Magic mind my friend turned me on to a fellow uh teacher at school it's uh green tea uh some of the ingredients green tea olive oil passion fruit uh and uh all natural so uh uh fdaa approved it's got 55 milligrams of caffeine and I notice when I take it in the morning my my mind sharper uh I'm calm and I'm ready to go when you're dealing with high school kids uh that's always important it's full of antioxidants and it has some immunity uh support it's a new Tropic and uh not really that's not my thing but I tell you what this product may have changed my mind I know I talk a little bit about it uh each week but I do love and actually use the product so uh the company was uh generous enough to give you a 45% off discount code which you can find in the episode notes so check it out magic mind one a day works for me it can work for you as well hi I'm Isaac Albert a longtime Card Collector and the co-founder of the penny sleever my wife and I started the penny severer with a simple premise in mind to offer collectors top quality supplies at fair prices we offer a full range of hobby supplies and we'll get them to you fast whether you're looking for a 260 Point magnetic for that oversized patch card or a slew of semi- rigids for your next PSA submission the penny sleer has you covered shop now at the penny s.com and use the promo code sction to get 10% off your first order that's SC Nation for 10% off at the penny.com the penny sever top quality supplies fair prices and now for the conclusion of our conversation with Michael do and his his new hobby film hobby hustle uh check the movie out uh a good Crux of this part portion of the conversation is talking about Cliff panich panzic uh who was the forger uh uh and uh along with friends and and got his mother involved so uh very interesting storyline uh we're going to kind of Deep dive uh here and some other things uh as well enjoy even with eBay you know as much as I I I use eBay and yeah I wanted to talk to them about you know during watching operation you know during operation stolen base which was in the documentary they kept all those fees that you know off all those fraudulent transactions of you know the the autographs that were forged and everything they still never gave back those fees and I wanted to ask about it I wasn't trying to be a jerk about it I just I just didn't want eBay to be like oh did nothing wrong hear no evil see no evil but at the same time it's like well you still kept those fees and I wanted to ask and when I approached them I I wanted to and they they were like no we're not going to talk it's like okay well you know so um that's why I brought sports card radio in on that because they're kind of very polarizing and I knew they'd be polarizing and they talk about a lot of bad things that are in the hobby but I also wanted people to understand their perspective of why they do because as I shot this documentary I've uncover covered I kept uncovering more and more and it was just unbelievable so they kind of it's kind of cool that they're kind of on top of it right and and they agreed with me I mean as much as PSA and JSA are needed company I do think there needs to be something that governs them now that's just my opinion because they set the market they set they set the price points they set there's only going to be so many mint gem 10s of a certain LeBron or or you know whatever and and I think there needs to be somebody to kind of put them inck too but you know that's just maybe a long bigger talk for for another day for sure yeah no I I'll give you my short I I kind of agree with that and then with the the financial aspect of of the billions of dollars that are exchang right uh lesser stuff is is regulated if you will so you know I know people don't you know me me included right we want sort of less cover a lot of times yes and that regulation can be a loaded word you know some people like and other people despise but you know I I guess I'll say this if if it could be done the right way and it works that I would I would support that right because even sometimes with regulation that can that can backfire too so as long as it's there's a plan that's that does more good than than bad uh you know if you love The Hobby right you want more good than bad so I would I would support that but right now as as you all know and and as as the film kind of it's sort of like not sort of it is really the ww west while you do have some sheriffs uh trying to do the right thing um again without regulation and in a body that sort of oversees that um uh it is there's a wild wild west aspect to uh and and you you did that with you know highlighting the the the operation stolen base and and Cliff pan I think I'm saying his name right paner yeah yeah and I I appreciate you know you mention like you had the the both sides of that coin right you had the the prosecution side you had the defendant side um you know he was convict you know he pled guilty and and served time and and uh you know uh came up but uh that's that that's important to talk about and and you touched more touched on that and you touched on even some thefts and burglaries and and alteration and you know you really that's why I said you covered a lot of of the stuff that we need to talk about if we're going to really tell the true story of of where the hobby is where it was maybe even where it's going right and um you know I knew about that case and I knew about some of the players but you you really opened it up to like fill in a lot of the blanks that even people followed that case or that story yeah you like you really deep dived it so obviously I I learned a lot and didn't realize how lucrative of a business and then how many tentacles and people actually became involved you know a lot of times you hear with this stuff it's just a couple people this thing kind of grew and got big and and you know whether you like it or not I I don't like it you know obviously was a criminal but he he was very good what he did like Illustrated like he's literally doing people's autograph on like a a whiteboard to to a te like you know you're just saying hey do this and he's just muscle met like he doesn't have to think about it and just you know it's it's criminal but there there's a part of me watching that Mike I kind of feel guilty saying this yeah yeah that's I think you know what I'm about that's that's incredible like it's bad but it's incredible I mean like at the same time yeah I wish you know I wish that stuff didn't happen but to be that kind you know bad craft but to be a wizard of your craft even on the bad side yeah there's a small part of me that said he did his homework you know and you know while I'm not admiring it you know I admire this the dedic I mared the dedication although it falls on the wrong side of the law right uh and I think we all you know we all have that little sight of us like Billy the Kid right not a good guy but you know there's a part of us that's sort of like the little Rebel in all of us right that's man like that's pretty funny or that's interesting to say to say the least you know he he definitely came to me uh you know obviously I saw him on film you you had a lot of conversation with him that probably didn't make in in the film he came off kind of smug a little bit cocky but maybe that comes from just for as long as he got away with it how big it got you know kind of your thoughts on on that part of the film and and and again you did a great job uh you know I like that you included again the prosecuting side to it and the law enforcement side to because there's two sides of every story right and like you said as a journalist you didn't want it to be uh one-sided some of your thoughts in to part of the film yeah I mean with Cliff Cliff is a hard person to like um not just in the film but in person and it's kind of I look at his story of kind of Shakespearean right I mean he has this he's trying so hard to be something which in the film he's trying to be a pro baseball player you thought he thought that's where where he was going to end up and he wanted to live that lifestyle of of a pro baseball player of a pro athlete but then he found out he's actually even better at something else that's a more dubious honor or not even an honor just a dubious craft which he goes on that side and then it totally brings him into the underbelly the CD underbelly of the hobby so which he has this big Fall From Grace and I wanted when I I knew I wanted because when I talked to him so it was really hard to get a hold of him at first um prisons have this system called JPay where you can video chat or email a convict or a uh an inmate and I used that and then I found his mom he was trying to Cliff was trying to run some businesses outside of prison through his mom Rose panzic and legit businesses like I think apparel and just like little side hustles that were I don't think they were really going anywhere but I found an email on there I reached out to her her and I swapped some emails in uh a phone numbers and then we started talking and then Cliff started responding to the JP emails I was giving him and I came cross Cliff is being very humble and I thought this guy needs a Redemption story this is his Redemption I want to film the Redemption story I will say and I'm not trying to be mean but the cliff I met in prison you know we went to prison we talked to him he came across just he was different he seemed to be humbled he seemed to be very apologetic the cliff I met in prison was completely different of the cliff that we filmed when he got released I mean you you saw a guy that instantly wants to be famous he wants to you know when he got got released from prison he wanted to be famous he wanted um there was just a different air to him and that's not to say he's a bad guy because I don't think he's a bad guy but I really I got at odds with where I wanted the documentary to end because like I said he's a hard person to like and I wanted to leave the Redemption story up to the audience do they think he was redeemed and do they because I do show high points and low points and Cliff's motivations like he's very mad at the law He's very mad at the the legal system that brought him down they thought they he there was there was some shenanigans on their part he wants that he wanted the documentary to reflect that and I told him from the beginning I said Cliff I want to show the crime you did and I want to show both sides of it but the law stuff we can mention it but I don't want to stick with the law side of it or I mean the how they brought you down and how you think they done them because it's very cloudy and it's very everything he said I had proof from their end and it was just really hard and and and and I knew that's where he wanted to go but I told him from the beginning that's not where we're going with this we're not going to about your case we're going to the crime so Cliff says this really Cliff he was apologetic in prison and then outside of prison he was never apologetic he as you see in the film I I want to give it away but there was yes I did the crime but and there's a lot of butts right yeah and he says this quote in the documentary that is kind of Haunting to me as a collector and I and I I want to know if if if you caught this quote he says let them be oblivious he was talking about kids collecting and about if kids do if they were collecting something fake how they would feel or should we tell them and he said let them be oblivious to to this day that still kind of sticks with me and I have my own thoughts on that but like what are your thoughts on that like when he when he has that comment like you know if if kids were if kids knew what was going on they wouldn't want to collect and there's so much money involved and he says it's just easier just to let them be Oblivion and he thinks that's the way it should be what did you catch that yeah I did it's funny you mention that quote I I I did catch it uh Micha I didn't like it right I think yeah um I I think it shows there's still know I'm not saying he's gonna do another fory ring but I think it still shows sort of a a disingenuous side of him like yeah it almost like he didn't say that I I'll ask you for I almost felt like he wasn't remorseful I it's the old cliche right I'm I'm remorseful that I got caught not that I did it yes and and I think that line sort of for me in my opinion sort of cements my thought about and you know I didn't realize this until talking to here today that sort of oh you know again that you know he was a little more Brazen like with the the stuff you shot once he was released but that you know I I thought while watching it in real time I thought well he's he's Free's he's you know he's enthusi he's glad to see the light of day his mom I'm like maybe that's what just kind of coming through but they're talking to you who who had multiple hours of conversation and you say hey it was really a different like these were two different dudes there's prison uh cliff and then out of prison Cliff that sort of you know I was wondering about that like is that it's it's hard to tell from two hour two hour plus and and obviously that the whole movie wasn't about you know operation Bas but it's it you know like maybe I'm being too harsh like you know what I mean like me he's just he's out it's confident like trying to change his life so it's hard to like judge you know plus see really I try not to judge if I if I don't have to the if I can and so I'm like I don't want to be a jerk about this but in kind of hearing you say n this you know in my dealings with him it's it's kind of two different things you know I thought to myself at different points and watching him speak and and the others like like I I thought is this someone who could like go back there again and and do it again or maybe even something different but along the same lines and just try to be more careful and not get caught and I couldn't like say to myself you know the little voice in my own head I couldn't with confidence say like no I think he learned his lesson yeah know future future issues and I know that sounds terrible to say and you like to give people the benefit of the doubt or I try do but I didn't get that but you know because like you said there were a lot of butts right rather than just say hey man I made a bad mistake like I'm I'm not as bad as the things I did but I did them and but I learned and I'm going to be a better this and a better that I didn't get a lot of that like you said there was a lot of sort of add-ons to like yeah I I messed up but or this was you know or a little bit of justification and that's that's where I said like it's almost like the door's still open like hey if I just am I smarter next time I can do this again I didn't say that obviously but it was just to me me reading between the lines I I got a little bit of that I I remember saying I hope I'm wrong I hope that's yeah he doesn't you know his his biggest downfall was the people he associated with because one two things I learned about Cliff while filming this he's incredibly smart like very very smart and two he loves his mom more than anything like he Lo he'll do anything for that lady she was a very nice lady um but her but he how do I say this he always said she had nothing to do with it or but then you start seeing in the documentary and the interviews she had a little bit more to do with it than she said she did he said did I have everything that the detectives gave me I have tons of um pages of the interrogations uh you know of the questions and everything the depositions and um her his mom wasn't as innocent as he's making her out to be and I get he's trying to defend his mom and I I think that you just I don't know and with Cliff it's interesting because now he's in this I want to be famous thing with with social media and now he's kind of going back to gambling and gambling is kind of what started him on the path of going the wrong way so I hope I really hope he can turn it around because there are pockets of heart that you see there was pockets of heart when I interviewed him when I talked to his coach his mom anybody who knew him his former associate there's pockets of heart but everybody who spoke well of him also had something negative to say about him too so it seems like you get both good and bad of cliff and it's just I don't know I think he needs to write his he's going to have to write his own story or finish and it's how I I was about to say that Michael like you talked about the Redemption side of this particular segment yeah he's gonna really determine that right by what he does in the future you know but you did a again you did a great job with the family aspect right his dad passing away and him not really being there in the same you know know way and yeah you know his dad being an honorable guy served his country right and then the sons the son sort of hate to say it like this but sort of dishonoring his father's Legacy by by his actions but here his mom's still around and regardless of how big of a role she played in in the the scheme she was involved more than like he wanted to to be known um but you know you still respect a son's love for mom and like you said I get I get sort of why he sort of tried to Shield her from from blame yeah um and now he's he's he served his time he's out right he gets to spend you know time with his mom but she's not you know super young obviously so you know there is that Redemptive quality that uh you know you sort of get a second chance and you just hope you know that's the takeaway I took is like you hope he doesn't blow like the the second chance right and yeah that's that's where he writes his own kind of of History he um there was stuff I mean like I said when I cut out a lot of stuff to just kind of compact this in there's stuff I didn't even show in the documentary about Cliff that yeah you know him and I we've had it out you know through the process and it was kind of like a you know head-to-head on a lot of different stuff and um because he wants his story to be told right but on the flip side of it you know when you tell him the truth he doesn't want to hear the truth and he wants you to side with him blah blah blah there's stuff I cut out I mean from Mob connections to stuff his mom has done and I want I you know there's so much I cut out um because I wanted to show the story as operation stolen base I didn't want all these side stuff because then you're getting into more of like right John you're getting into that series you're getting into like series kind of feel and I knew I couldn't do that um and I wanted to keep everything packed into everybody's mind on operation stolen base I didn't want to go off on these little side tangents you know of of the uh of their story so but there was a lot I cut out of Cliff story that I mean just stuff that holy crap man holy crap yeah yeah let me ask you this I don't know if you can answer it I'll ask if you can't sure do you know has has he seen the film himself has yeah so he's seen he's seen an early cut of his story I didn't show the whole film and you know he liked it at first he really liked it and then he got mad once his mom seen it because his mom didn't like the way she was depicted and I said well I I'm telling the story I also you know because even when the the detective and you know FBI and everybody saying okay she was a part of it I also have her saying she didn't know anything about it so I'm not really pointing fingers like you did this I'm having two people say one person say what they did and and another person say they did he got he gets mad because and he said this from the beginning he doesn't he's he always said it's time for him to tell his story and he doesn't want the law to have their side of the story because they're always telling their side of the story but I said Cliff I can't do that because I can't just have it one way because then it's not true and he agreed I mean we have the agreements and everything in place and but he was always fighting that aspect of it which led to a lot of heated stuff between him and I um so he ended up going to try to sell his story elsewhere because he's out of prison at this point so he wanted to sell his story now mind you this is a little more inside baseball when I contacted him in prison nobody was talking to Cliff Cliff yeah I don't think Cliff had any friends I think it was just he was focused on getting out and taking care of his mom as soon as he got out and that was it and as soon as he got out he was like oh wow look at all these people making money on social media Tik Tock everything I he wants to do the same thing so he was shopping his story around and I didn't even know about it I was actually trying to finish his story up I remember I was in Columbus and I was trying to finish his story up and I just got done filming his uh the interview with his attorney Percy Squire and there's a lot that went down in Columbus just I remember my dog got stolen out of my car it was this whole thing I won't go into it but so when I found out I get this call from a producer um and the producer says hey are you filming are you filming Cliff's story you know and in so many words and I said yeah why and he goes oh because we paid Cliff for the rights to his story I'm like wait what like what's going on right now I said I've I've been with Cliff since 2019 I mean he already signed good man so Cliff was shopping the story around anywhere he could because the thing is he he was like oh I gave you the sweetheart deal you know when when I was in prison and didn't have you know a voice and I'm like well that's not fair you agreed to it this is you know and then he found out I wasn't telling the story the way he wanted to tell it so that's when we started butting heads more and this was after his his stuff was all done being filmed yeah but he loved the initial cut John he loved it and he gave me props and he loved the way it ended and then once his mom viewed it she got sad because he didn't like the way she was depicted and then he blew up on me and then that's kind of where we're at right now where he was just I don't know I think he shot some of that documentary I don't know what's going on with other documentary but I told him I said well I told Cliff two things I said to tell your story you need to tell both sides of it so I don't know how this other producer is gonna do it without you getting and two I said you hate that I call you the Mastermind of operation stolen base but on social media he's flaunting him as Mastermind beh so I said I said Cliff I'm making this documentary you signed the paperwork where I'm going through with it and I did and I said this is just how it's going to happen I mean I yeah this is just how it's going to happen and so after that we haven't talked in for months since then but um yeah he he like I said liked it at first and then once his mom seen it didn't like it well I think you did it the right way right you you gotta show uh both sides if you would have did it where it was just him and his mom right yeah while there'd be some elements of Truth in there for sure yeah it wouldn't be 100% of that and and people would pick that apart you know what I mean like oh man you just you know I think you know and here's the thing I'm not saying you know Mom is the Antichrist here but like you know what the evidence was presented you know what evidence they have to yeah you know if I know that I'm probably not going to be talking to you saying I had no clue what was going on or you know when there's stuff that's in dockets and in files that show the opposite of that right I might say no comment or you know my role was very very small on the grand schema of all this but to to just blatantly say I wasn't involved when there's evidence you know that's on them like like you didn't do you know what I mean like you can say they can say whatever they want right but they it's not they they know what was presented that's exactly you know whether it was presented in court or in the files that they they they're aware of that led to you know pleading yeah and that stuff's it's not sealed like it's it's going to come out if yeah yeah so like you can take this stance like I don't know what you're talking about like that's not you know but the someone else is saying hey here's what we know here's what we observe here's what we surveilled and here's you know talking to you know people involved they had these interactions with so and so on these dates and so like it's the proofs in the pudding as the old uh cliche goes and so I think it would have been I I think I would have respected it more if she had said like I don't want to talk about you know you know I love my son I did you know for the love of my son like even if she didn't go into detail but to like not really say hey I don't know what what was going on and when that's sort of disingenuous I would have probably respected her more if she just said like I was the really small figure on this chess board but and it's just because I love my son you know and leave it at that but like you know it just reminds me of of the Raphael Pomo you know testifying Congress and and pointing like you know I did not do and all the everyone else saying like I injected him I you know so it it had that element to it I think I would have I would have rather and not that she's doing it for me but I would have rather her say like yeah I I don't want to talk talk about that let's you know I'll talk about cliff and what happened there or you know that sort of stuff but when you category deny something and then evidence sort of shows the not the case then I think it looks worse than if you just say no comment or you know even if you downplay your role and just say hey I was really a a very very you know I was a Pawn on this chess board you know I wasn't The Rook or the bishop you know I I'd respect that even more like she not she's not claiming 100% innocent she just doesn't want to dive deep dive in details of that yeah and it's and she's a very nice lady but like I said I told both sides and and that's just yeah that's just where it ended I I told both sides you know at the end of the day if if he wants to tell a different story go ahead with that other documentary man but um I like I said I don't even know the status of that one and I remember even talking to the producer who was behind the documentary and I said and him and I had a couple conversations because we thought we were both being had at this time and uh and he he had a lot of things to say about you know Cliff too and he's just like yeah this guy's not remorseful there's and I said well good luck if you're filming that because you know I mean it's just his truth is going to be shown on camera if and he can't run from it and I think to this day until he fully accepts what he did fully I don't think he'll ever find peace you know and that's just my thoughts on him on that you are listening to the sports card Nation Podcast we'll be right back after this break iron sports cards is your number one source for all your PSA and other grading submissions their Elite status improves turnaround times heck they even provide the card Savers their chat rooms provide updates on all your submissions they also offer wax options and single cards to cover all the bases check them out on Facebook at irons sportscards group or on the web at irons sportscards.com or even give them a call at 1877 i n PSA Rob's got you covered we are back you know one last question pertaining this I don't want you know I was a little surprised that he was like he seemed to me I'll let you answer this you you were there he seemed a little too enthusiastic about you know when he was showing you examples of how he could sign different athlet uh you know so forg their their signatures under the board he seemed sort of a little too proud for me like I you know on one hand I just said earlier in our conversation like there was a part of me that sort of was like wow he kind of mastered a a craft even in it in even though it's illegal like he did but he to me he seemed a little too eager to like hey watch this kind of thing hold my beer watch you know did did that surprise you or or not really because you had already like sort of you know heard previous conversation it didn't surprise me just because at that time when he was you're talking about when he was signing on the Whiteboard at the end yeah yeah so when he was doing that one he was basically following my instruction I wanted um he wanted to because at first I said hey can you sign some stuff on like a notebook or a paper and he goes yeah I I'm not doing that because he goes I'm I just got out of prison if they know I was signing fake stuff yeah that could easily be taken he goes I I'm like no that's true man that's true he he came up with the idea of the Whiteboard I said that's a great idea that's a great idea um and I think he was doing it at the end off the direction of me and the guy and TJ Penton who was doing the cinematography on that one yeah so I think he he was kind of focused on that and he every time we talked about the signatures you could tell it was how do I the best way I can describe it John is talking to Old World War II or Vietnam Vets where they're proud of their country they're proud of their service and they'll talk about it with kind of like remembering some days but then there's stuff they don't want to remember you know what I mean so they're kind of very like closed off when they're talking about it and that's kind of how it came across with Cliff because that led to bigger conversation so I think he knew he was good and I think he knew he knew like okay this could go into more but um but yeah that stuff at the end was totally just off Direction and if it was him like that like oh yeah I know what I'm doing I mean I'm sure there was some sense of like I'm really good at this but at the same time yeah at the same time I don't I didn't it wasn't that surprising because at that point in filming him he was already like look at me I want to he was wanting us to take pictures in front of cars that weren't his and it was just weird he was just like I said the cliff in prison was different than the cliff out of prison but I think it to him he was about let's I I want to start my new brand and and things like that so he had this air about him when doing all that so yeah that that did come out that did come out but uh you know you you obviously saw a lot more uh you know in person than we get to see in our living room so I'm listen yeah yeah I think I speak for you here too you correct me if I'm right like I'm rooting for I'm rooting for him like not to go down the wrong path right as a human being like he's he may not be my favorite person he did he served in prison it's not like he got off scottf free y now I just hope you know for the sake of even his own mom and himself right uh that he travels the the right Road and stays on the right path and you know whether that's in app Peril like you said or whatever long as it's above board and it's uh you know clean money as as they say like I'm I'm not rooting against the guy as as for you know I think it's a bad place to be as a human to root against another you know even even bad ones like he again he he didn't get off scott free um he's out like now if he does the right thing like you know he didn't murder anyone either too let's you know uh while he did some really bad and unscrupulous stuff that cost people you know thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars um he didn't kill anyone either so you got to keep it in that sort of perspective yeah and he there's Pock like I said before there's pockets of heart there John with him yeah things that I that I showed him the documentary but things that weren in the documentary that's that a lot of people don't know about Cliff Cliff is always rooting for the underdog one thing I really like about cliff and he still does this he always helps friends out you know that was kind of his Downfall with operation stolen bases which he explains in the documentary he goes oh I'm behind in a mortgage payment you know friends had come to him with all sorts of stuff behind a car payment there was even family member that would come to Cliff his aunts and uncles and because and because he was making money and he would do the things for them because Cliff always felt like he had to take care of everybody and he still has that and Cliff doesn't do drugs he's never did drugs Cliff um he'll take in people I I you know there was some friends that fell on hard times I mean with drugs and and alcohol and he would always take them in and and he would do you know he would help turn their life around so there's these pockets of Cliff that I know he'll become a good person but I I I really do think once he fully accepts the fact that he did what he did I don't think he'll ever find peace I think he'll always kind of lead with anger um but there is a good there is a good person in there you know for sure yeah and you did you did a great job in in in showing that aspect it did come through uh uh in in the film you know again not not to condone the the criminal side but in in watching the film one of the things I said is as as as this ring got bigger and this person was added you know again that voice in my head I'm like this is where this guy dropped the ball just it this got too big there was no way it would succeed any longer like V again not to not I'm not condoning crime but just when you watch a movie right said oh man that's where they screwed up right yeah yeah you know that's where they they dropped the ball that's what I took is like man if he would have kept this to really a small level with just minimal people yeah um who knows how long he would have got it with it right I think it was when he's just hey you want to do this here's what you can do and I just I'm like it almost became a little Amateur hour while he was not an amateur himself I think it it there was an element of that in what happened and I'm like yeah yeah you could like if you didn't know how this ends like it became very very apparent and right and that's you know someone gets caught and then they're going to roll over and like hey we'll give you know we'll give you either immunity or a lesser sentence and if you tell us everything you know and who's the who's the the head chef in the kitchen here yeah and uh you could even you know even though I knew about the story like had I not like you could see that that coming down yeah down the tracks you know and um again you know like you said I I think you put it ELO you know the the Redemption story is going to be written by Cliff himself whether it is or or it isn't and I guess that's there's Beauty in that right one way or or the other like he's gonna have no one else to blame uh you know he'll either get the credit for being a Redemption story or he'll get to blame for for not learning his lesson exact he gets to control that sort of Destiny you know so absolutely I hope I hope it's on the right side uh you know rather than on the wrong I don't I try not to root against people so whether I like him or don't like him um I try to generally not read so you know for the sake of his mom and and you know the time he has left I hope uh I hope he does the uh the right thing but I really the way you presented that whole case even though I knew quite a bit about it it filled in a ton of blanks and and that was the first I you know and I think for a lot of people even knew the C that's the first I really heard from him you know the voice whether you agree with everything he says or not that was the you know he did get to tell his side of story might believe some of it and not all of it but he did get to to tell it and uh I thought that was refreshing and I thought it was I thought it was uh well done thank you thank you very much well it's it's a great movie it's it's coming out uh February 16th by time me he this part of of the episode it it's out uh where for those listening uh where can that that want us view it Michael kind of tell people what they have to do where they have to go yeah it's it's on Apple TV and Amazon we'll premiere on those on February 16th so that's that's coming up pretty soon and yeah I mean those that's where we Premiere and then in the months following I'm sure it will it will go elsewhere and then just be on my social you know just stay tuned to my social media michaelj dot on Instagram and or my website michael.com and yeah you'll always there'll be a lot of uh updates on where it goes from there well listen I I you know I legitimately appreciated and and loved the film thank you so much it it's you know I always and it's not you know whether I'm scre write reading a book from an author that that's coming on the show um this isn't the first movie uh I got the screen I've been been blessed and privilege you know I always go in kind of open-minded I don't want to like I think some sometimes if you oh man this is going to be the you you sort of set the bar too high and then you don't want to do the opposite right like this is so I kind of go in like hey I don't know what to expect I haven't seen this yet so uh and you just like I said uh earlier too you checked a lot of the boxes to me it's the best film that really shows what the the true face of the hobby good and bad you yeah you know uh and that's a good you know it's a good thing that you did that well we don't like to as you Illustrated some people don't want to talk about the bad stuff all the time I I think we got to because that's how you avoid the Pratt Falls or falling uh prey to it is we ed through education right absolutely and I I think there's an education uh piece to the to the film uh as well right we can learn uh from this right to what to look for uh be careful um this is real these happen and um and uh you know so I think uh I think people who who who see the film especially that are familiar with the hobby I think will feel much the same way Michael like this really didn't leave too many stones unturned and uh that's not it's easier said than than done and you did a great job with it I I'll put you one last question I'll put you I'll put you on the hot seat before we we we say goodbye like you know you mentioned you know there's obviously footage that you can't get everything in the movies some stuff yeah doesn't make it in you know might we see uh uh you know whether it's a part two or even just a another hobby movie maybe called something else I mean what you know what can you say to to that yeah I will say you know it's I have all this footage that we cut out and there's some good stuff I mean we interviewed other people um there's a couple more people that did some crimes that we interviewed that we just couldn't fit in um so yeah I'm I'm kind of going through my options right now I kind of want to wait till the release of this and see how it's received and um and then kind of go from there and if there's yeah if if anybody's open if they want to see more yeah I I would 100% want to tackle this again because one thing that's good about this hobby John which you know obviously there's so many angles to this hobby I mean there's so many different and it changes changes time man the CH it I used to say one of my lines I use I said this hobby changes every couple years it changes by the week now yes current the current edition of of the hobby we're in now every week there's something new or there's a new wrinkle or new story like the new cycle you know you you could do a monthly publication and and not miss anything you you you can't do a daily publication or a and you without missing something so the new cycle is is quick there's new wrinkles there's new Innovations Technologies uh and good stuff too it's not even just the bad rinkle you know so so I you know I will say this I'll be selfish and I think other people who see this film will will is as great as it is and knowing that there's more that you have probably will say this was so great so good let I I want to see I want to see you know so uh you know hope hopefully that's the case and uh love to have you back and we can do it do it all over again well listen uh great film uh I'm not just saying that I seen it um you know and uh you know it's it's long and length but like it's to me a mark of a long a good long movie is you don't you don't realize the time until you look at the clock like you you know a bad movie is like you keep looking at your watch and like how yeah oh yeah I didn't realize the length until after it was already over that to me that's the mark of of a a good film and you're not looking like how much time is left or like just got to be close uh and and the way you put it together uh I think really keeps it kept me engaged and and locked in and and you know I try to take notes if I'm screen like there was times when I probably should have been writing something down and I'm like no I'm I'm watching this what's what's next or what are they gonna say now and I'm like oh I missed my note you know and i' re I I'll be honest with you I re I re rounded a couple just to like write something down so uh very well done uh you did uh way of you know you did your due diligent you covered sort of all the angles which I think uh is a true Testament uh to where the hobby is good and bad uh and I think people going to enjoy it uh like I did and uh probably probably yearn for for part two or another edition of it so absolutely let's hope yeah there you go well listen continued success Michael uh hobby hustle uh is the film uh whether you're a longtime hobbyist like me or fairly new it really interesting and trolling and uh you know really shows kind of again all the aspects of of what's going on and uh again you can learn uh it's it's not just a a documentary where you just watch it I think you can learn uh some things and if this old dog like myself can learn some stuff uh uh that tells you a lot so uh thanks again thanks John thanks so much man all right that's gonna wrap up our conversation with Michael do and uh again great film check it out if you haven't and if you missed part one of our conversation uh from the previous week uh check that out as well uh just uh enjoyed talking about the film talking about the hobby uh with Michael so uh you know he's a busy guy between the film coming out and interview request I appreciate him uh coming out time for our hobby is the people announcer of the [Music] week sup everyone it's Brody the kid always remember the hobby is the people peace out if you'd like to be the hobby is the people announcer of the week do a wave or MP3 file and send it to sportscard Nation pc@ gmail.com that's a wrap for this week huge thanks to you the listeners out there because without you there is no us if you like the show we truly appreciate positive reviews Big Ups to our great guests who drive the show and our awesome sponsors who make it all possible sports card Nation will be back next week but don't forget to catch either the hobby quick hits or card Menches coming up on Monday I'll leave you with this how do we change the world one random act of kindness at a time remember the hobby is the people for nearly 50 years Sports collector's digest has been the voice of the hobby bringing you comprehensive coverage of the sports collectible industry from industry news auction results market analysis and in-depth stories about collectors and their collections Sports collector digest has everything you need to know about the hobby SCD is also your leading source for listings of sports collectible dealers card shops card shows and the latest from the industry's top companies to check out all the latest news or to subscribe to the Hobby's oldest magazine this visit sportscollectors digest.com [Music] 5561 hobby hotline is the 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