WEBVTT
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Sports guard Nations, Hobbies, the People, Wheely News and Interviews.
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It's your number one soul sports Gardations hobby is the people.
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Sports Guardation.
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What is up, everybody? Welcome to another episode of Sportscardination.
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Always happy to be back with you. And let's thank
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our sponsors. Get that house clean out of the way.
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In no particular order, as I always say, SGC Iron
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Sports Cards, Sports Collectors, Digest, Hobby Hotline, Upper Deck Card Ladder,
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Any Certified Trading Card Association which I serve on the
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advisory board for Thank you to those folks, check them
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out and all the great things they're doing in the
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hobby and for the high be And the guest on
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today's show is a longtime hobbyist and PSA's first employee,
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employee number one. He's not there anymore, but he was
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there for quite some time. He does his own thing
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now for Mike Baker Authenticated And as the name implies,
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who that's our guest on the next two episodes this
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week and next episode. And that's Mike Baker. And you
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know I knew of him, I didn't know him personally,
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So through talking with him, I've gotten to know him
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better and really nice guy.
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You know.
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One of the first things he said when he agreed
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to come on and chat with us, he's like, John,
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ask me anything you want to write, and you know
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that's always refreshing to hear. And I asked a couple
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you know, I don't want to say tough questions, but
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pointed questions, if you will. But you know, we talked
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about the hobby, current state of affairs, grading, what he does,
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why he feels it's a necessary part, what it, what
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it enhances and brings to the grading metche and and
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he is also MBA is now grading cards as well,
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so they enter that arena. So great interesting conversation I had.
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I enjoyed it, and I hope you enjoy the next
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two episodes as much as I enjoyed recording them. So
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Part one with Mike Baker today and part two with
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Mike Baker next week. Enjoy all right, real happy to
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have the next gentleman on the Sports Cardination guest line.
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We were just joking around off here.
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It's been an interview long in the making, but glad
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he's a busy gentleman. Glad to finally get him on
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and generous to make us some time for us as well.
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So without further ado, I'm glad to welcome Mike Baker
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of NBA, Mike Baker Authentication, Mike, welcome.
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Thanks for having me. John, good to be here.
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Finally, Yeah, yeah, no problem.
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Listen, Like you know when we obviously grading is a
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hot button topic in the hobby and when you take
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a grade, and I'm not fluffing you up, I'm just
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being honest. Right, you're one of the names that come
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to mind because of your experience in that niche still
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doing it in your own way as well. Now, am
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I corrected? I read that you were the first employee
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of PSA or first grader.
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Yes, both, first first employee.
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Actually it's three five years this month that PSA started,
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So dating myself there, but you know, it can't get
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past the father time and the fact.
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So yeah, I'm with you.
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Talk about like a little bit before that, like how
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did that even start? You just supplied, did you did
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you know? Did you get recruited? Like how did your
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career at PSA start.
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It's basically just being at the right place at the
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right time.
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I had already been with the sister company, Professional Coin
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Grading Service CGS for two years prior to PSA's inception,
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and just by being there while they were developing the
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processes and everything else. So I'm just like, wow, I
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gotta this is where I want to go. And so
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I just kind of made myself available for reading conversation
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that you know, I find myself to be in to
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get into the conversation of who might be the guy
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to take it over or basically be the first guy there,
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and by de facto made myself that guy with their
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approval of course.
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So you're you're the answer to that. What a question,
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which is is pretty cool. You were there a decade plus.
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I mean when you take back too, like grading in
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its infancy, if you will, and where we are today
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here in twenty twenty six, I mean it's kind of
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a loaded question, but like, what's the like, how has
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it changed in your opinion through the decade.
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Well, when PSA first started, there was no halfpoint system,
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so right there, you know, working with a high end seven,
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a low and eight type thing was kind of it
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was difficult to kind of have the delineation that you
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have today with the half points.
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So and that moved on.
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It was I think for fourteen and plus years they
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didn't have it, so it didn't change until the early
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two thousands, So that change was a big one that
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we didn't have. I didn't have the change with the
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Internet EBA coming on in ninety eight, that was a
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major one. You know, QVC and doing big bulk submissions
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for modern stuff to try to narrow the gap, and
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the brand awareness of what PSA was ending, what they
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were actually doing, that helped big time. So there was
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a lot of things that kind of coalesced. You had
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the ninety eight home run Derby with McGuire and Bond,
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so there's a lot of a couple of little things
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that really helped juice up the no pun intended the
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entire the entire entire market as a whole. So those
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were some of the transformative things that I saw happen
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at that time. And you can look back now and say,
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you know what, we'll really the kind of the markers
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that kind of really pushed things over the edge. Dealer support.
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At the beginning of PSA's inception, there was very little
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dealer support. There's a lot of collector support that kind
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of made the dealers kind of all buy that car
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from you for this price. If you get it graded
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by PSA and then we had PSA authorized dealers, and
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you know, things kind of went a much better direction
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in terms of brand awareness and submissions and all those
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good things.
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You know, I'll pick your brainy here, Mike.
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A lot of people can play, you know, obviously most
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people know what's going on now. A lot of the backlog,
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especially if you say they've paused their low levels. Some
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people are complaining that people are sending in you know,
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air quotes, you know, lesser cards that they shouldn't be graded,
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or why are you grading.
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That it's a five dollar base card.
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Again, it's it's the individual's card if they wanted it great,
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might have a sentimental reason, right, there's all sorts of
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But I've heard people, you know, it's been called like
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the junks lab error.
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I mean someone who's been in it that long. Was
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this always the case?
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And maybe we're just more noticeable now because there's more
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people sending cards or or is this sort of a
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new phenomenon. How do you see it as someone that
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was there on in the early trenches to where we
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are to.
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Well in the early days, you know, just to get
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people to carry the product and start this kind of transactionality,
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so you got consistent with what people were buying and
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selling it just because forever it's been a raw product
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and now it's encapsulated, and now you know, there's more
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trust when you send an encapsultor product across the you know,
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across state lines, whatever it was, there's all kind of
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you know, bugaboos and whatever that came with it. What
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really has transformed, in my opinion, is repacking. And you
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know when you just brought up, you know, a five
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dollars card to get graded, well, the repacker is seeing
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that five dollars gig so that they can put that
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in the product. And so that's really what is in
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my opinion, has been the kind of major driver for cards.
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I will say though, because of the brand awareness is
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so big, people will come up to shows and you know,
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my booth I can speak for what we're getting, and
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they just want it encapsulated, you know, and they're willing
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to pay the price. I mean, you know, there's stories
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and you could get a lot of dealers on here.
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They remember the early days with PSA when six dollars
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bulk deals and you know, basically getting cards graded for
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under ten dollars without any uptick charges. That was the norm,
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and now you know, it's just a different, different era
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thirty five years later ish, you know that's uh, you know,
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who knew that repackers are going to be such a
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big deal and digital repacks you know, physical It's just
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it's just gone places where the market's humming. I never
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thought having a conversation, uh, where a grading company, the
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biggest grading company in the business PSA, would have to
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shut down because they're getting too many cards, you know,
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and and then to boot have a eight figure backlog.
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That's I can't even that's crazy, you know, and uh, yeah,
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things have changed.
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Yeah, and great point by you too, Mike. I that
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kind of slipped slipped through my five LL with the
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repacker roll in this as well.
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You forget I forgot it, but I didn't forget about them.
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But you don't, you know, you forget the impact they're
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having because they need those graded cards. Whether it's like
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you said, digital opening a digital pack, Uh, there's got
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to be a real card behind that that that person
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has the option to either take possession.
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Or have them holding whatever they're holding.
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Facility evolved, but that you know, we we I think
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sometimes a lot of us probably don't even realize that
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impact of it. It's not just you know Joe Smith
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from Chaboy and and again it's not really you know
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when people complain that about that to me, even at
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my tables, I'm like, listen, you know, if people want
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to pay the grading free to have a card graded,
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that's that's their prerogative.
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That's just this is America, right, Yeah, you know what
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I mean.
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So, so like you can get mad, but but you
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know when when when you're thinking a grading, niche too, Mike, Like,
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it's a weird business model because like if a restaurant
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is really too busy, they just hire more staff, maybe
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building an addition.
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With more seating. Uh and and uh.
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But grading is different because obviously you don't want just
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any you know, you say, well, just hire more graders, right,
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that's easily said, right, but you want to they need
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to be put through the paces, apprentice be trayed, you know,
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you know, and I think anyone that's getting their cards great,
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don't want just anyone to do it. If you have
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a choice between someone's who's experienced, who knows what they're doing,
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or doesn't, I think the choice is easy. So you know,
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I know it gets grating gets compared to a lot
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of you know, normal businesses, if you will, And I
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think it's sometimes hard to do that because it's just
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such a different kind of industry.
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It's not a restaurant.
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Where you can train a weight staff or you know,
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even a cook or whatnot in a week's time maybe
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or less. Right, It's it's not as easy as that. So,
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I mean, you know, kind of your thoughts on that, well,
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you just nailed it. I mean, this is you know,
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grating isn't three letters. It's greater as human beings are
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doing this.
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And you know, I'll give AI and machine learning a
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little bit of props to help with the centering identificing
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and sizing identification, but ultimately it's the guy that's looking
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at the card look, you know, and then having his
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experience on what he's looking at and interpreting that to
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a standard and then applying that consistently.
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It's not something you just grab off the street.
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If it was that easy, we wouldn't have, you know,
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ten million card backlocks. You know, do you think you
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know P s A or the other grading service wants
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to shut down their business and not take revenue. I mean,
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you know, you can conspiratorial think, oh, they're just trying
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to drive you know, prices so they get hire more
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money for hire charged services. You know, no one's in
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my opinion, I don't believe that. You know, there are
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cards that, like you said, they're worth five bucks, and
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you know there's there's a service option to service those
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types of cards valued at that level. But if they
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could get if any grade service, could you know, get
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ten million.
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Cards out, they would try to do that.
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And I think, like you said, it's gated by the
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person's experience. You can't take them off the street. They
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have to go through the the litmus test, so to speak,
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to get into the chair, know what you're doing, and
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then you know effectively grade you know, and that's a
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that's a it's a it's a talent, it really is.
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Do you think do you think this will be more
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of the norm, like even when let's you know, in
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PSA's case, they unpause these lower.
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Levels, these folk levels.
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Do you think this is gonna be sort of like
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we're gonna see this every so often or you think
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there'll be a point where they can stay ahead of
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it or or not because of the growth of the hobby.
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Well that's the balance, right, It's how much growth are
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we talking about? You know, what's what's the what's the
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future look like? You know, I think after COVID, I
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would have thought I would have thought that that wouldn't happening.
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You know.
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But the market, the markets, it's dynamic. It's going to
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do what it's going to do, you know.
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And I will say, like any market, there will be
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ups and there's hyperbolic ups right now within the market,
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and there there will be a downturn at some point.
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And just how it goes it's Murphy's law, whatever law
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you want to apply to what goes up must come
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down type thing. I think it's to what degree does
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it continue to go up? And to what degree when
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it does correct, will it go down? And I think
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that's the kind of the debate of you know, what
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where should you be the timing of the market, Just
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like stocks or real estate, you know, you you hold
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something for a while, you really like it, especially you know, uh,
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trading cards in particular.
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You know, we all have a passion for them.
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And you know, I always say, you know, if your
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house is on fire and you've got cards, your dog
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and your wife, what order are you grabbing which one?
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You know it's cards usually falls on top, you know, and.
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I'm not going to answer that just well just to
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stay married.
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We're all, uh, we have a lot of you know,
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O's behavior in us to what degree is debatable, but
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you know, when you're spending your discretionary income on things
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like this, and now it's not even a baseball card anymore.
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Now it's an alternate class asset and all these other
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you know, big big league terms so to speak, you know,
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and they're coming in. I'd like to believe that's continue
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to roar.
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Uh.
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I know, it feels like we're the market's cool. You know,
287
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it's got a wow factor now. Before was like, oh
288
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I got back from college and my mom threw away
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everything that I had and the addicts and stuff and
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or those are just baseball cards. Who really cares about that?
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And now it's like, what do you mean? You have
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Pokemon cards and you know, trading cards. That's the greatest
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thing ever you could be sitting on a fortune. So
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the whole narrative is switch. So to what degree that
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holds the line in terms of it going forward forward
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on a four or five X or whatever actually want
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to apply it. I don't know, but I want to
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put my finger on it and say I think it's
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got some shelf life left to go stuff.
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So yeah, no doubt. I tend to lean towards what
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you're saying. I think it's gonna get bigger, you know
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00:15:12.159 --> 00:15:14.600
how much. I guess The question is how much bigger
303
00:15:14.679 --> 00:15:17.559
right now? Not the if, it's just how people quantity.
304
00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:21.159
I got to ask you this question, Mike. You know
305
00:15:21.240 --> 00:15:26.440
we've collected Universe, a parent company of PSA. Obviously, they
306
00:15:26.440 --> 00:15:31.840
acquired SGC a few years back. We then read more
307
00:15:31.879 --> 00:15:35.320
recently they've acquired beck At Grading as well.
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A lot of people up in arms saying it's a monopoly.
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They own three of what most people would agree with,
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the Big four. You know, people want the government or
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the Federal Trade Commission to look into it, get involved.
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00:15:50.360 --> 00:15:54.200
As someone who's worked for PSA and now doesn't has
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his own grading company in a sense like kind of
314
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where do you fall on?
315
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You know what?
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00:15:59.759 --> 00:16:03.480
Pop who are are with the monopoly word and antitros
317
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and all that stuff that comes with it.
318
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Politically speaking, it's it's easy, you know, for me from
319
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NBA's perspective, My personal perspective, it's great because we're an
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00:16:13.639 --> 00:16:16.679
independent and if you're tired of not wanting to deal
321
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with what is perceived as monopoly or whatever the perception is,
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then there's options. There's CGC, there's TAG, there's others that
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are out there that are trying their hardest to win
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the hearts and minds of the community at large and whatnot.
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And I know we're doing the best that we can. Ultimately,
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it's going to be dependent upon, you know, how they
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conduct the overall operations independent. I've been in interviews in
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the past where I've commented on, you know, there's something
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good that could come from this by consolidating. I know
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that's kind of like the opposite world of what most
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people on the street would agree with. But if it's
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done right, they could pull it. If it's not, it'll
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it'll go the market.
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Again. The market will dictate what's going to happen.
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If that means oversight or whatever may come from it
336
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or not, I don't know. All I can tell you is,
337
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you know, nobody wants to have a Tilian car backlog
338
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and not get those out and and tell people that
339
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have submitted that their cars aren't coming back.
340
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Until that, I can tell you. So I know no one's.
341
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Sitting around going how much longer can we hold lot
342
00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:12.359
of these cars before we send them out without them?
343
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Get this off. I don't no one's I don't believe anyone.
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I think everyone's trying to do their best get the
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cars in and out, and then it just comes down
346
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to service and you know, are you sticking to the line.
347
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I think those are the two things that people mostly
348
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should be concerned with or or consider of, is service
349
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and consistency. That's that's where it sits.
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That's what's gonna went out.
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Yeah, one more question kind of pertaining to those groups.
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You know, I'm asking you to put your like fortune
353
00:17:38.519 --> 00:17:39.440
teller head on.
354
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Looking into the future.
355
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Five years from now, does Collectors Universe or Collectives Holy?
356
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Do they still own all three grading companies?
357
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Do they own? Do they sell one too?
358
00:17:51.559 --> 00:17:52.839
Like, that's a good question.
359
00:17:54.559 --> 00:17:57.319
You're not going to be penalized being rock.
360
00:17:58.079 --> 00:17:59.880
I think they're going to be public, and I think
361
00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:04.359
are probably gonna have and or more under their umbrella.
362
00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:07.720
So within five years they're public. They're a big juggernaut.
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00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:12.400
They're moving and shaking, they're escalating the ten X factor.
364
00:18:12.519 --> 00:18:14.920
I know, Michael Rubin, so that's what he would like
365
00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:18.079
to accomplish at Fanatics and you know who knows that
366
00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:19.960
He said that a few years ago and they just
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00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:22.720
got the license just what this year. So you know,
368
00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:24.599
that ten x factor could be much There might be
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00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:28.359
another multiplier on top of that. So PSA just opened
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00:18:28.359 --> 00:18:31.839
an office in Frankfurt, Germany. We're talking about opening up
371
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internationally at some point in the future. Right now, we're
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trying to get our system scaled up to handle what
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we get right now. But the international thing, it just
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00:18:39.480 --> 00:18:42.359
shows you the growth of the hobby overall. You know,
375
00:18:42.720 --> 00:18:46.000
we're going to attend the Macau Show in October, so
376
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we're going to Macau, China to go.
377
00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:49.279
Talk to collectors.
378
00:18:49.319 --> 00:18:51.640
We get a lot of interest from you know, Singapore
379
00:18:51.720 --> 00:18:55.200
and Taiwan and far. It's it's unbelievable how much reach
380
00:18:55.559 --> 00:18:58.400
now is out there and how people are you know,
381
00:18:58.440 --> 00:19:00.720
collecting and transacting all around the world right now.
382
00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:02.319
And that's really the unknown factor.
383
00:19:02.359 --> 00:19:04.839
And how long does that heat up, uh and continue
384
00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:06.519
to turn you know, yeah.
385
00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:08.680
It's it's it's it's a you know, it used to
386
00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:12.079
be kind of America's hobby, right and now it's a.
387
00:19:12.519 --> 00:19:14.519
It's a worldwide phenomenon.
388
00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:19.880
You are listening to the Sportscard Nation podcast will be
389
00:19:20.039 --> 00:19:23.119
right back after this break. If you care about the
390
00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:26.839
future of the hobby, it's time to know the name CTCA.
391
00:19:27.400 --> 00:19:31.839
The Certified Trading Card Association CTCA is the first and
392
00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:36.359
only nonprofit trade association dedicated to making the trading card
393
00:19:36.359 --> 00:19:41.559
hobby safer, smarter, and stronger for everyone, from collectors and
394
00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:45.640
local card shops the breakers, grating companies and hobby businesses.
395
00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:51.240
Through initiatives like the Trusted Retailer Program, the Certified Breaker Program,
396
00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:54.960
the Healthy Hobby Initiative, and the Global Trading Card Registry,
397
00:19:55.240 --> 00:19:59.880
CTCA is helping bring more trust, transparency, accountability, and for
398
00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:03.400
protection to the hobby we all love. Whether you're a
399
00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:08.000
shop owner, breaker, dealer, content creator or a passionate collector,
400
00:20:08.440 --> 00:20:10.519
Now is the time to help shape the future of
401
00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:14.200
the hobby. Become a member today and join the movement
402
00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:19.400
at the CTCA dot org. That's VCTCA dot org. Because
403
00:20:19.400 --> 00:20:23.880
a better hobby starts with all of us. CTCA building
404
00:20:23.880 --> 00:20:26.480
a safer, smarter, and stronger hobby.
405
00:20:29.079 --> 00:20:30.200
We own batch.
406
00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:34.640
You know, we're seeing shows like you just said in
407
00:20:34.880 --> 00:20:38.519
China and Germany and other countries that have never had
408
00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:42.279
a card shows in London, and the list goes on
409
00:20:42.359 --> 00:20:43.519
and on, and.
410
00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:45.359
You know, I like to see that.
411
00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:48.799
I'm you know, as someone has started in nineteen seventy
412
00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:52.480
nine as a seven year old kid. I like the
413
00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:55.680
fact that I don't want to think that someone won't
414
00:20:55.720 --> 00:20:59.240
can enjoy the hobby because of where they live, right,
415
00:20:59.319 --> 00:21:01.440
And that's a disqualifier.
416
00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:03.000
So I enjoy.
417
00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:07.319
I enjoy seeing the growth if it's good growth, right.
418
00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:11.400
You know that's a double edged sword. You know, we
419
00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:14.400
won't go down that rabbit hole. But I do enjoy
420
00:21:14.519 --> 00:21:17.920
seeing the growth. It's interesting to hear you say, like
421
00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:21.039
in your opinion, like you you think they still not
422
00:21:21.119 --> 00:21:24.240
only do you think they still hold those companies and
423
00:21:24.519 --> 00:21:28.000
you even mentioned maybe even acquire another one that would
424
00:21:28.039 --> 00:21:31.200
surprise me with some of the uh to answer my
425
00:21:31.240 --> 00:21:34.319
own question, Mike, I don't know, like they're already getting
426
00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:37.039
heat for what they own now to add another one,
427
00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:41.000
whoever that may be, Like, I'd be surprised if they
428
00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:45.079
did that. But you know, nothing really should surprise us
429
00:21:45.279 --> 00:21:48.119
anymore what we've seen in the in the last decade
430
00:21:48.119 --> 00:21:49.279
and the hobby, well.
431
00:21:49.160 --> 00:21:51.039
You keep pushing until you find out where you can't
432
00:21:51.079 --> 00:21:54.240
push anymore. Right, Yeah, So you know if they were
433
00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:56.920
if they were to do something like that and some said, no, okay,
434
00:21:57.039 --> 00:21:58.799
we know the ovens hot now, we won't touch it.
435
00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:01.279
So but if some one says that I've been open
436
00:22:01.319 --> 00:22:02.720
for business and then why not.
437
00:22:04.200 --> 00:22:05.880
You know, no, that's a great point.
438
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:08.400
And listen, I do that, you know when I still
439
00:22:08.440 --> 00:22:12.680
play met's competitive softball and I coached varsity high school
440
00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:15.319
baseball and football, and I would put you know, I
441
00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:18.039
pushed the umpster the refs right until they tell me
442
00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:19.240
like no, you know.
443
00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:20.640
I don't want to hear another word out.
444
00:22:20.519 --> 00:22:22.640
Of your your guard and I know that, all right,
445
00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:25.000
I gotta I gotta keep my mouth quiet now, so
446
00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:27.960
it makes it makes sense. So yeah, maybe that's what
447
00:22:28.119 --> 00:22:31.079
it'll be, right where until they're told like, hey, you
448
00:22:31.160 --> 00:22:34.039
have to sell at least one or you can't do that.
449
00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:37.440
But uh yeah, it'll be interesting, uh to see you
450
00:22:37.480 --> 00:22:40.559
know my big fear. And I'll just like close this
451
00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:44.039
segment with you know my big fear. You know, people
452
00:22:44.039 --> 00:22:47.200
asked me because I was bolk subbing as an SGC
453
00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:50.400
folk subber at at the time of the acquisition. A
454
00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:52.519
lot of people were asking me, Hey, what does this mean?
455
00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:53.920
What is this going to look like?
456
00:22:54.359 --> 00:22:56.640
And honestly, I can only give an opinion.
457
00:22:56.680 --> 00:23:00.720
I'm not in those meetings or those out look planned,
458
00:23:00.759 --> 00:23:04.240
so you know, I gave my opinion. But the one
459
00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:07.079
thing I was glad about my big fear, and I'll
460
00:23:07.079 --> 00:23:08.599
get your take on this too, Mike.
461
00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:12.400
My big fear was that Fanatics was going to.
462
00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:15.119
Buy a grading card company, and I don't want to
463
00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:19.440
see that. And again, I think it's a conflict of
464
00:23:19.559 --> 00:23:23.359
interest when you're producing cards and grading them and not
465
00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:26.599
only grading your own cards per se, but you're also
466
00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:32.960
a sensible be uh cards for all reports very well.
467
00:23:33.519 --> 00:23:36.279
And you know, I don't think they need a grading
468
00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:41.759
card company. As someone who's very experiencing the gricks, let's say,
469
00:23:41.799 --> 00:23:45.400
acquired SGC or even someone else and became got into
470
00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:46.359
the grading space.
471
00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:48.519
You broke up there a little bit, John, So I'll
472
00:23:48.599 --> 00:23:51.559
just grab what I could make out of the stuff
473
00:23:51.559 --> 00:23:53.519
of the internet connection. I don't know what happened there,
474
00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:56.039
but give me a quick snapshot of what. As you
475
00:23:56.079 --> 00:23:58.440
were talking about Fanatics owning a grading company.
476
00:23:58.359 --> 00:24:02.960
Yeah, I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm glad Fanatics did it,
477
00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:06.920
and again, everything can still happen, but at this point Fanatics,
478
00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:09.240
you know, there was rumors they tried to acquire STC
479
00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:11.640
and others grading companies.
480
00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:12.920
I don't want to see.
481
00:24:13.079 --> 00:24:16.000
I don't want to see Fanatics own a grading company.
482
00:24:16.039 --> 00:24:17.359
I just think it's a catholic of.
483
00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:21.640
Interest with grading their own cards, grading competitors cards.
484
00:24:21.880 --> 00:24:24.480
I think it just said, it's a bad sort of precedent.
485
00:24:25.480 --> 00:24:29.559
As someone again of your expertise in the space, do
486
00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:33.160
you agree disagree something You're glad it's not the case now.
487
00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:38.480
Well, ideally there would be guardrails for companies that have
488
00:24:38.519 --> 00:24:41.960
access to production, sales and everything else. But you know,
489
00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:45.039
in this market, over the last couple of years, we've
490
00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:45.799
seen a lot of chains.
491
00:24:45.799 --> 00:24:47.960
We've seen what you mentioned about, you know.
492
00:24:47.960 --> 00:24:52.440
PSA doing or collectors, you know, other things that have
493
00:24:52.759 --> 00:24:54.640
kind of gone on that I would have thought, you know,
494
00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:57.640
years ago, would have absolutely not happened, and now they
495
00:24:57.680 --> 00:24:59.799
are and there hasn't been durs and up war. But
496
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:03.359
seems like our news cycle, so the velocity is so
497
00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:06.000
fast that there's no like traction of something. It just
498
00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:08.079
like everyone kind of gets up in arms about it,
499
00:25:08.119 --> 00:25:10.759
whatever it may be, and then it kind of burns
500
00:25:10.759 --> 00:25:13.319
its shelf life off in forty eight to forty eight
501
00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:15.640
hours to a week, and then it's onto the next
502
00:25:15.720 --> 00:25:19.599
you know, butterfly to catch. And so however it works
503
00:25:19.640 --> 00:25:23.079
out with Fanatics doing anything or whatever other company, it'll
504
00:25:23.119 --> 00:25:25.640
be what it'll be. And people, again, the market's gonna
505
00:25:25.880 --> 00:25:28.440
go back and decide what they want to do business.
506
00:25:28.079 --> 00:25:28.559
With or not.
507
00:25:28.599 --> 00:25:31.640
I mean, ultimately, if the if the prevailing thought is
508
00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:34.079
that Fanatics shouldn't do that, then the only way to
509
00:25:34.119 --> 00:25:36.359
counter it if they were to do it is for
510
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:39.319
people to not do business with them, to make it
511
00:25:39.359 --> 00:25:43.359
so they get But ultimately there's ways to gamify everything51200:25:43.440 --> 00:25:47.000
and kind of make the friction not be so frictionalbul51300:25:47.160 --> 00:25:49.960
or whatever the word is, to use them as a51400:25:50.000 --> 00:25:53.640
service hypothetically. So I don't know, we could go on51500:25:53.680 --> 00:25:56.000
and on about the debate of the the what ifs51600:25:56.000 --> 00:25:57.799
and stuff. They're gonna do what they're gonna do, and51700:25:57.839 --> 00:25:59.720
PSA did what they were going to do, and they51800:25:59.799 --> 00:26:01.640
let to like, hey we did it, now what you51900:26:01.680 --> 00:26:04.079
know and so and everyone stile submitting to the point52000:26:04.079 --> 00:26:06.279
where they had to shut down services. So, you know,52100:26:06.359 --> 00:26:08.680
if it was that big of a deal, I think52200:26:08.720 --> 00:26:10.680
it would have you would notice it more in submissions52300:26:10.680 --> 00:26:14.279
because you know, even if you can't stand what whatever52400:26:14.319 --> 00:26:16.920
you hate about a service or the service, you know,52500:26:17.119 --> 00:26:20.200
ultimately the three letters command a lot of liquidity, and52600:26:20.279 --> 00:26:24.519
people are entrenched in certain brands for that liquidity, and52700:26:24.640 --> 00:26:26.920
they're and some of them, you know, are so OCD52800:26:27.200 --> 00:26:30.240
they can't found them using another grading service to you know,52900:26:30.440 --> 00:26:33.440
kind of mess up their ecosystem. And then they're collectible.53000:26:33.519 --> 00:26:35.559
So they want all the same holders. They want everything53100:26:35.640 --> 00:26:37.559
to look this way. You know, everything's going to be53200:26:37.680 --> 00:26:40.440
this color or that color. So you know, I don't know.53300:26:40.480 --> 00:26:43.160
I think it's up for each individual to figure out.53400:26:43.200 --> 00:26:45.160
Look, we if you have one hundred dollars bill.53500:26:45.079 --> 00:26:47.160
Right now and you could spend it on anything, why53600:26:47.200 --> 00:26:49.519
why this market, why that grading service?53700:26:49.839 --> 00:26:50.799
Why whatever? Right?53800:26:51.119 --> 00:26:53.200
So ultimately it's going to be up to you and53900:26:53.240 --> 00:26:55.880
the other people in the world to to sort where54000:26:55.880 --> 00:26:57.799
they want to spend their money. And for whatever reason,54100:26:58.039 --> 00:27:00.519
even if it's putting your nose up in the air saying,54200:27:00.839 --> 00:27:02.079
you know, I hate to do.54300:27:02.079 --> 00:27:03.839
This, but I have to.54400:27:03.920 --> 00:27:05.519
My client won only buy it if it's in this54500:27:05.599 --> 00:27:06.640
gredient services holder.54600:27:06.799 --> 00:27:07.759
You're going to look the other way.54700:27:07.799 --> 00:27:11.200
Most people do you know, conviction in our world, in54800:27:11.240 --> 00:27:14.000
the business world, you know, you can't put your personal opinion.54900:27:14.039 --> 00:27:16.960
You have to do business and business. Business is business.55000:27:17.000 --> 00:27:18.440
It's cliche for a reason.55100:27:18.799 --> 00:27:22.000
Yeah, now you're right, you're right. All right, Let's enough55200:27:22.000 --> 00:27:26.279
talking about other three letters. Let's talk about MBA. Right,55300:27:26.599 --> 00:27:29.839
we gave them some free pub not that they need it,55400:27:29.920 --> 00:27:33.039
but we gave it to them. Anyway, Let's talk about55500:27:33.359 --> 00:27:37.880
your company MBA. Mike be bankerupt and kind of like, wait,55600:27:37.920 --> 00:27:40.880
you know how you you know why you started it,55700:27:41.039 --> 00:27:45.079
how you started it, where you are today and all55800:27:45.119 --> 00:27:45.480
that good?55900:27:45.720 --> 00:27:50.480
Yeah, the why was there's a you know, just heard56000:27:50.519 --> 00:27:53.440
PSA celebrated or the celebration of one hundred and fifty56100:27:53.480 --> 00:27:57.880
million shirt being bought out on the market thirty five years.56200:27:58.039 --> 00:28:00.519
So let's say the numbers one hundred and fifty with56300:28:00.640 --> 00:28:04.519
a PSA overall market, you've got to probably talk of56400:28:04.559 --> 00:28:07.160
the two hundred million plus range, you know, of units56500:28:07.160 --> 00:28:10.880
of plastics that are out there. Over twenty thirty plus years,56600:28:11.680 --> 00:28:14.559
Greden Services have changed their standards. They've included new things56700:28:14.599 --> 00:28:17.720
within their standard. They've tightened up their standard with centering.56800:28:17.759 --> 00:28:19.960
There's a lot a little here and there and everywhere56900:28:20.119 --> 00:28:24.440
where I thought a sticker could be a good idea.57000:28:25.160 --> 00:28:27.279
It was proven to be a good idea in coins57100:28:27.319 --> 00:28:30.920
with John Albani's doing the CAAC sticker, much so to57200:28:31.960 --> 00:28:37.359
everyone's opinion that PCGS actually included this their sticker into57300:28:37.400 --> 00:28:40.440
their waiting of the ECGs coin register, so it included57400:28:40.440 --> 00:28:43.359
a lot more gamification. So a sticker had a higher57500:28:43.359 --> 00:28:46.000
weight or has a higher weight than a nonstick coin,57600:28:46.319 --> 00:28:50.519
so it has a track record of highlighting better copies.57700:28:50.720 --> 00:28:53.519
So I did not invent that will PWCC was doing57800:28:53.519 --> 00:28:56.160
their sticker well before NBA came up with one. For57900:28:56.200 --> 00:28:59.400
the trading card industry, there are other stickers that auction58000:28:59.480 --> 00:29:04.000
houses US four shot corners as Theirs Heritage has one.58100:29:04.319 --> 00:29:07.240
You know, there's been others here and there that was.58200:29:07.200 --> 00:29:08.000
The the need is.58300:29:08.039 --> 00:29:10.359
You know, you've got all these great cards out there58400:29:10.480 --> 00:29:12.400
that are in the same grade, but some cards are58500:29:12.440 --> 00:29:15.319
just better within the grade. I always use as an58600:29:15.319 --> 00:29:18.160
example for nines in particular, PSA doesn't have a nine58700:29:18.160 --> 00:29:20.400
point five, So between a nine point zero and a58800:29:20.480 --> 00:29:21.400
nine point nine.58900:29:21.200 --> 00:29:22.640
There's just better cards.59000:29:22.480 --> 00:29:25.119
It's just a fact they don't have a pristine They59100:29:25.119 --> 00:29:27.519
don't have a flawless or a black label type of thing,59200:29:27.599 --> 00:29:31.079
so our sticker helps with that. And over we'll be59300:29:31.440 --> 00:29:34.440
celebrating our six year anniversary coming up here in August.59400:29:34.720 --> 00:29:37.079
And we finally got some really great I think we59500:29:37.119 --> 00:29:40.640
had our moment in time, our tipping point last National59600:29:40.720 --> 00:29:43.920
in Chicago, and some great sales happened. Heritage got some59700:29:43.960 --> 00:29:48.119
great sales, Golden got some great sales. Ria Fanatics and59800:29:48.160 --> 00:29:50.680
it just like was like this perfect moment where they59900:29:50.720 --> 00:29:55.240
started advertising NBA within the catalog, describing it properly.60000:29:55.359 --> 00:29:57.880
There's more search, there's just more information.60100:29:58.400 --> 00:30:01.319
Also, when we first started, a lot of the cards60200:30:01.319 --> 00:30:03.519
that we sticker were in personal collection, you know, so60300:30:03.720 --> 00:30:05.440
it was no one wants, no one wants to sell60400:30:05.480 --> 00:30:08.920
PC cards, right, But this hyperbolic market has drawn out60500:30:09.039 --> 00:30:12.839
a lot of colorful cards that are stickered great cards60600:30:12.880 --> 00:30:16.359
and they're selling for stratosphere prices and it just keeps turning.60700:30:16.400 --> 00:30:18.640
So another log gets thrown on the fire and it's60800:30:18.640 --> 00:30:21.440
still roaring and ripping, and it's been it's been great,60900:30:21.640 --> 00:30:24.440
you know, I've it's been a hard road. But getting61000:30:24.440 --> 00:30:27.160
out their COVID was a big non starter for people61100:30:27.200 --> 00:30:29.759
wanting to send their cards. We've been labeled grading the61200:30:29.759 --> 00:30:31.759
graders and all the other you.61300:30:31.720 --> 00:30:33.480
Know, fun terms and whatnot.61400:30:33.559 --> 00:30:37.599
You know, ultimately it's a crossovers. The sticker means something61500:30:37.599 --> 00:30:40.920
to what we do for our NBA graded product.61600:30:41.119 --> 00:30:43.319
So if it's a silver sticker, it's going to get61700:30:43.359 --> 00:30:44.599
the exact same grade.61800:30:44.799 --> 00:30:46.680
But you're gonna get a silver sticker on our holder61900:30:46.680 --> 00:30:50.000
because it's denoting superior eyepill for that card in that grade.62000:30:50.440 --> 00:30:52.960
A gold sticker represents something that's a half point or higher.62100:30:53.079 --> 00:30:54.640
Yeah, I'm a little stubborn.62200:30:54.680 --> 00:30:57.759
I'm a little oak and so I always felt that62300:30:57.920 --> 00:31:01.039
was like you're paid twice to have one card. So62400:31:01.119 --> 00:31:04.480
I've never done it again. It's but again, it's a62500:31:04.559 --> 00:31:09.160
free country. It's America, right, and obviously enough people wanted done.62600:31:09.519 --> 00:31:12.759
I guess my question to you is not so much62700:31:12.839 --> 00:31:16.480
why you know, but like when when a card gets62800:31:16.480 --> 00:31:19.160
a silver stick and like, it's a great point by you,62900:31:19.240 --> 00:31:21.079
right with C I see that. I know they were63000:31:21.079 --> 00:31:24.759
called the green Bean in the coin and and the63100:31:24.839 --> 00:31:26.720
track record shows us right.63200:31:26.799 --> 00:31:29.400
I'm not a coin guy, but I did enough research63300:31:29.480 --> 00:31:29.759
to know.63400:31:29.880 --> 00:31:32.799
And I have a coin guy friend who said, hey, John,63500:31:32.839 --> 00:31:35.839
one knows with that green bean sticker, those coins for63600:31:36.160 --> 00:31:38.759
more money on the secondary like it or not, those63700:31:38.839 --> 00:31:43.160
bringing more money on the secondary market. Right, So I63800:31:43.200 --> 00:31:46.240
guess my question to you is between the silver and63900:31:46.279 --> 00:31:49.279
the gold, and like I've heard it worded like this64000:31:49.440 --> 00:31:53.319
has been you know, in the ten percent of the64100:31:53.359 --> 00:31:56.680
top of that grade. How do you know that? I64200:31:56.720 --> 00:31:59.519
guess would be my I know it's sort of a simple,64300:32:00.079 --> 00:32:02.960
maybe so simplified, but how do you know that other64400:32:03.039 --> 00:32:05.920
than you feel like it's sort of like I mean,64500:32:05.960 --> 00:32:09.480
grading is subjective to begin with, you know what I64600:32:09.519 --> 00:32:11.839
mean to say to how do we know? Well?64700:32:11.880 --> 00:32:15.000
I think you know, if I showed you ten copies,64800:32:15.319 --> 00:32:17.400
I think it would be pretty easy for you and64900:32:17.440 --> 00:32:20.160
I to agree that the copy that's getting a sticker65000:32:20.440 --> 00:32:25.119
is in within the percentage that's being you know, marketed. Ultimately, though,65100:32:25.480 --> 00:32:28.440
you know, we started our graded product Holder hit the65200:32:28.480 --> 00:32:32.319
market in January of twenty five. Now, you know, it65300:32:32.599 --> 00:32:35.400
shifted from it being that conversation of you know, if65400:32:35.440 --> 00:32:36.960
you had ten or fifteen cards in front of you,65500:32:37.000 --> 00:32:39.519
which ones would you what? Could we all agree that65600:32:39.519 --> 00:32:42.480
that is the superior copy within that grade in that sample?65700:32:42.920 --> 00:32:45.119
And now it's literally a crossover.65800:32:45.359 --> 00:32:47.480
So you know, we look at it like it's got65900:32:47.519 --> 00:32:51.200
to adhere to NBA standards, NBA grading standards, and the66000:32:51.240 --> 00:32:54.799
sticker goes to that. If there's ever you know, a wobbler,66100:32:55.119 --> 00:32:58.160
you know, then maybe the conversation kick into the ten percent.66200:32:58.240 --> 00:33:00.759
But by the national or shortly or after, we'll have66300:33:00.799 --> 00:33:02.839
our bronze sticker that's gonna come out and that's going66400:33:02.880 --> 00:33:03.960
to be the great equivalent.66500:33:04.079 --> 00:33:05.480
So it's basically going to note.66600:33:05.720 --> 00:33:08.480
Bronze sticker will denote the exact same grade going into66700:33:08.480 --> 00:33:11.599
an NBA holder. A silver will denote supure I appeal66800:33:11.680 --> 00:33:14.079
for that grade. So you have a silver gold half66900:33:14.079 --> 00:33:18.640
point or higher and black strictly for tens for denoting67000:33:18.720 --> 00:33:19.400
a fallicity.67100:33:19.519 --> 00:33:20.400
So that's how you.67200:33:20.359 --> 00:33:23.519
Know, yeah, you know, I hear black label and we67300:33:23.799 --> 00:33:27.240
have you think about the old back controversy. That's a67400:33:27.279 --> 00:33:30.720
whole show in itself, but that's again that's them and67500:33:30.799 --> 00:33:34.880
not you. So what for those that are listening, like,67600:33:34.960 --> 00:33:38.160
what's the difference between this? So is there gonna be67700:33:38.200 --> 00:33:40.039
no more gold? Is there a gold label?67800:33:40.559 --> 00:33:42.240
Yeah, there's there're are Yeah.67900:33:42.519 --> 00:33:46.480
So basically third party third party graded cards P s A,68000:33:46.519 --> 00:33:48.400
S G C G s C D tag are the68100:33:48.400 --> 00:33:51.400
ones that we do right now, any any gold represents68200:33:51.680 --> 00:33:54.720
a higher grade. Any any silver represents the same grade68300:33:54.799 --> 00:33:57.000
with supure I appeal, and when we do launch Bronze,68400:33:57.039 --> 00:33:59.960
it will reflect the exact same grade going into an68500:34:00.079 --> 00:34:00.839
be A granted holder.68600:34:01.039 --> 00:34:04.559
Yeah, so if a card gets a gold sticker from68700:34:04.799 --> 00:34:09.760
from MBA, you're basically saying that was undergraded, right in68800:34:09.800 --> 00:34:10.440
your opinion?68900:34:10.639 --> 00:34:10.920
Yes?69000:34:11.119 --> 00:34:14.000
Do you ever not that you care? Do you like?69100:34:14.440 --> 00:34:17.760
Do you do you ever get any pushback or feedback69200:34:17.800 --> 00:34:20.800
from a grading card company that like, hey.69300:34:20.599 --> 00:34:23.400
Why do you do that? Or you're wrong or you69400:34:23.440 --> 00:34:24.840
know that doesn't make sense?69500:34:25.199 --> 00:34:26.320
No, No, there's not.69600:34:26.679 --> 00:34:30.840
I think it's I joked about it last week, and69700:34:31.199 --> 00:34:34.199
it's kind of like Anchorman. The greatest services are kind69800:34:34.199 --> 00:34:36.280
of like news stations, and it seems like there's not69900:34:36.360 --> 00:34:39.480
a lot of you know, you know, cohesion. Now I know,70000:34:39.920 --> 00:34:42.480
you know, Scott At a great guy knows this stuff,70100:34:42.639 --> 00:34:44.519
no doubt about it. Can I call him up and70200:34:44.559 --> 00:34:47.599
ask him about a card's nuances or if there's a70300:34:47.679 --> 00:34:50.480
question about something. Absolutely, are we having, you know, a70400:34:50.519 --> 00:34:54.239
philosophical discussion about what NBA is doing relative to a sticker?70500:34:54.400 --> 00:34:54.519
No?70600:34:54.760 --> 00:34:56.519
And I bet if we did he think it'd be great.70700:34:56.760 --> 00:34:58.400
Same with some of the guys that I hired and70800:34:58.440 --> 00:35:01.360
trained that are still at PSA, you know, leading the70900:35:01.480 --> 00:35:02.880
entire grating department.71000:35:03.320 --> 00:35:03.400
Uh.71100:35:03.559 --> 00:35:05.239
I think they say that they're great.71200:35:05.320 --> 00:35:08.280
They're happy that I'm I found a lane to you know,71300:35:08.280 --> 00:35:10.559
that I'm happy with. And I think the market for71400:35:10.639 --> 00:35:13.840
the most part is has been acceptant of I know71500:35:13.880 --> 00:35:16.480
there's the naysayers out there, but like you said about71600:35:16.599 --> 00:35:19.480
the coin and the CEC, the green bean sticker, whether71700:35:19.519 --> 00:35:21.239
you like me or you don't like me, it's not71800:35:21.280 --> 00:35:24.199
a personality thing. It's it's the data that that that71900:35:24.239 --> 00:35:27.239
comes from the sales and that builds the business case.72000:35:27.559 --> 00:35:30.159
That's what should that's where the decision should lie from,72100:35:30.480 --> 00:35:33.079
not on all the other superfluous stuff that you can72200:35:33.079 --> 00:35:34.719
get caught up in in this you know, cause and72300:35:34.760 --> 00:35:37.559
effect mentality that a lot of people have in our hobby.72400:35:37.719 --> 00:35:40.320
Yeah, No, it's it's a good point. There.72500:35:40.360 --> 00:35:43.880
You have it Part one with Mike Baker, Mike Baker72600:35:44.000 --> 00:35:49.000
Authenticated or m b A. And UH hopefully enjoyed that72700:35:49.159 --> 00:35:52.280
as much as I did, you know, recording it and72800:35:52.320 --> 00:35:55.480
talking with Mike. And that's only half of the conversation.72900:35:56.039 --> 00:36:00.960
Part two next week. As we've you know, went to73000:36:01.440 --> 00:36:05.480
two part episodes probably almost a year ago now and73100:36:05.559 --> 00:36:08.360
probably one of the best decisions I've made.73200:36:08.840 --> 00:36:09.679
For the podcast.73300:36:09.719 --> 00:36:14.199
So next week Mike Baker returns and uh, as always,73400:36:14.480 --> 00:36:17.480
as we gear up for the national I hope to73500:36:17.519 --> 00:36:20.920
see a lot of you there. If you see me,73600:36:21.000 --> 00:36:24.199
and you know, happen to know who I am. Uh,73700:36:24.320 --> 00:36:28.239
you know I'm a very personal guy. Stop me, poked73800:36:28.280 --> 00:36:30.719
me in the back, tapped me on the shoulders, say73900:36:30.800 --> 00:36:34.679
yo newman. Uh and uh, what would you know? I'd74000:36:34.679 --> 00:36:37.920
like to meet you, shake your hand and talk some74100:36:38.039 --> 00:36:42.000
hobby uh in person as well. So that's gonna do it.74200:36:42.119 --> 00:36:44.079
For this episode. We're gonna hear from our hobbies, the74300:36:44.079 --> 00:36:48.000
people announcer of the week and wrap it up and74400:36:48.079 --> 00:36:50.519
Mike Baker will be back next week.74500:36:51.480 --> 00:36:55.320
Time for all. Hobby is the people announcer of the week.74600:36:58.880 --> 00:37:01.880
What's up sports Card And this is Brett McGrath with74700:37:02.039 --> 00:37:07.239
Stacking Slabs podcast. Remember the hobby is the people. If74800:37:07.280 --> 00:37:09.800
you'd like to be the hobby is the people announcer74900:37:09.880 --> 00:37:12.800
of the week, do a one or MP three file75000:37:13.000 --> 00:37:17.159
and send it to Sportscard Nation PC at gmail dot75100:37:17.199 --> 00:37:20.480
Com Hey John, you want to have a catch
